School Orders Child to Remove God From Poem

[tom88]

Originally Posted by PsyOps

This case you cited is about forbidding student-led, student-initiated prayer, using public property to do so. The OP is about a girl who wrote a poem, not initiating or leading a prayer. Invoking the word God in a document (in this case a poem) is NOT using public property for prayer or initiating prayer.

And the SCOTUS, as with so many things, got it wrong on prayer. There is no violation of the establishment clause when a school decides to have a prayer or allow students to lead a prayer. This does not, in any way cause congress to establish an official religion that we all must abide by and follow. This whole debate has gotten chronically stupid that we believe when someone says a prayer on public property that somehow is, by extension, the federal government establishing religion. Congress and the SCOTUS starts every session with a prayer, yet our schools can’t even mention God in a poem.

This all about out-of-control lawyers, and atheist groups dictating our lives to us, all the way up to the highest levels. An extreme minority controlling the masses, and we just keep bending over and taking it.

I wouldn't argue with you about any of your points with the exception of the poem. Being that the poem invokes the name of God, and speaks of praying to God, I can see the school districts point in not wanting to spend critical rescources fighting a battle with groups already known to take it to the highest level.

The court has already spoken on using public property to promote religious beliefs. As said in the beginning, I disagree with the court but that is the law of the land.

[MMM_donuts]

Originally Posted by PsyOps

Sure it's not.

Atheists are at the very front of these complaints. It's their desire to put their rights over every one else's. God is mentioned in a poem and some woman has a problem with that. Is there, in any instance, where 'God' can be mentioned? ANY?

The divisiveness is in these people that complain when the word ‘God’ is mentioned; that such a mention be quelled. The quelling of FREE SPEECH and, at a minimum, recognition of certain faiths is a fundamental violation of the 1st Amendment. This meets that minimum standard that this girl only mentions the word ‘God’ in her poem. She is not preaching, she is not leading a prayer, she is not forcing anyone to believe anything; and by extension, the school forcing anyone to recognize – let alone establish – religion.

What's next, every dollar bill that pops up in our schools have the word 'God' crossed out with a Sharpy? This is how stupid the whold debate has gotten and this is how the process works for the anti-religious zealots (atheists); little chips away at our most fundamental rights. This is just another method to take a chunk out of our constitution.

Should I judge Christians based on the very publicized activity of the members of Westboro Baptist Church then? I mean, after all, they are in the news often, representing their Christian beliefs and how those beliefs should be imposed on everyone. Now we have court cases attempting to clarify the legality of protesting and demonstrations.

Please explain how that would be different.

[MMM_donuts]

Originally Posted by TPD

I am very decisive when it comes to my religious beliefs, and I am NOT ignorant nor do I misunderstand other's beliefs because of my decisiveness.

And so I stand corrected, because I thought atheists were the only group of Americans that have a problem using the word 'God' because they don't believe - 52 percent of Jews do NOT believe in God

Crap. That was supposed to be "divisiveness".

My peer group and I are non-believers and not a single one of us cares about a little girl talking about God. Or if she wanted to lead a prayer. Or if she wants the 10 Commandments in her school. So......it's more likely that there are some angry douchebags out there trying to change things. They are probably angry because religion is pushed on them so often - it affects them and is restrictive and they don't think it's right. However, that does not mean that all atheists, or even most or many atheists, share that sentiment.

Serious question, what would you know about atheism? Are these your perceptions of a group that you don't have actual personal contact with?

[TPD]

Originally Posted by MMM_donuts

Serious question, what would you know about atheism? Are these your perceptions of a group that you don't have actual personal contact with?

My best friend of 25 years is an atheist, I am a Catholic. And interestingly, he and his kids took classes in school to learn about religion and to become 'confirmed', not because they were forced, but because his 'belief' is that in order to get along in today's society, you have to be educated. Education includes religion, as well as history, math, etc. Atheists are like most other groups in the world - everyday people, with a major difference being the deity, or lack there of in their life. And like any other group, there are bad apples that spoil the whole basket.

[PsyOps (Premo)]

Originally Posted by tom88

I wouldn't argue with you about any of your points with the exception of the poem. Being that the poem invokes the name of God, and speaks of praying to God, I can see the school districts point in not wanting to spend critical rescources fighting a battle with groups already known to take it to the highest level.

The court has already spoken on using public property to promote religious beliefs. As said in the beginning, I disagree with the court but that is the law of the land.

Invoking the word ‘God’ and speaking about praying is NOT leading or starting a prayer, nor is it even remotely encouraging anyone to pray. It doesn’t even promote religion; even though there is no mention in the 1st about promoting religion, let alone a religion.

It should be taken to the highest level. With every challenge goes another chunk from our rights. The constitution over-rides anyone’s person quandary with something. The constitution does NOT guarantee your right to not be offended. It does protect my right to freely practice mine, whether that be in school or any other public place.

[MMM_donuts]

Originally Posted by TPD

My best friend of 25 years is an atheist, I am a Catholic. And interestingly, he and his kids took classes in school to learn about religion and to become 'confirmed', not because they were forced, but because his 'belief' is that in order to get along in today's society, you have to be educated. Education includes religion, as well as history, math, etc. Atheists are like most other groups in the world - everyday people, with a major difference being the deity, or lack there of in their life. And like any other group, there are bad apples that spoil the whole basket.

I agree wholeheartedly.

[tom88]

Originally Posted by PsyOps

It should be taken to the highest level.

Then what I propose is you put up the money to the school district in North Carolina so they can fight the sure to follow law suit.

[PsyOps (Premo)]

Originally Posted by MMM_donuts

Should I judge Christians based on the very publicized activity of the members of Westboro Baptist Church then? I mean, after all, they are in the news often, representing their Christian beliefs and how those beliefs should be imposed on everyone. Now we have court cases attempting to clarify the legality of protesting and demonstrations.

Please explain how that would be different.

You can judge people however you chose. What does that have to do with this subject? We’re talking about whether it’s the right of someone to invoke the word ‘God’ in schools at any level. In the instance of the OP, it’s apparent the agenda here is to silence any mention of the word ‘God’ as it doesn’t fall under the ‘prayer’ criteria.

This doesn’t have to do with your judgment on someone or people or groups; this has to do with whether someone should be allowed to freely practice their religion anywhere anytime; which is obviously being violated by a few intolerant people.

I care what the Westboro people do because it’s disruptive to a very solemn event; but there are ways of dealing with them without getting courts involved; and what folks are doing (like that Patriot Guard Bikers).

I am capable of ignoring those kooks; are you? It seems a fairly sizable group of intolerant anti-religion groups have very little tolerance for any public mention of God. When your intolerance (which the constitution does not protect as a form of action against others) infringes on my right to freely practice my faith (which the constitution specifically protects) then YOU have violated my constitutional rights. It’s just that simple and too many people – particularly lawyers – have complicated this far too much.

[PsyOps (Premo)]

Originally Posted by tom88

Then what I propose is you put up the money to the school district in North Carolina so they can fight the sure to follow law suit.

If they start a fund I will gladly contribute. But I think it's pathetic it even gets to the courts in first place. A simple read of the constitution should dictate this. But I recognize we live in a vendeta society. There are just some that are incapable of exercising the smallest level of discipline to just ignore. Their seething intolerance is so strong that they feel compelled to do all they can to shut people they disagree with up.

[Reighvin (Premo)]

A couple of different things are being talked about here. What started as a conversation about the poem, turned into people attacked atheist.

One thing I see hasn't been addressed is the fact that students are not protected by the full Bill of Rights while in school. The courts have determined that the school is able to limit things like freedom of speech and freedom of expression, among other things.

Since you have no freedom of speech while at school, then the school having the poem removed does not infringe upon her rights.