President's approval rating Sags

[Clare Whitbeck]

Where’s the beef, you said.
1. We went to war in Iraq to get the Iraqi oil. I think we could have gotten oil at a lower price elsewhere, and I hate to waste money.
2. We paid for the war with a tax cut, thus creating the highest deficit ever. The deficit shouldn’t be unexpected because:
3. “Trickle Down Economics” didn’t work for Reagan and it won’t work for Dubya either. When the rich get money, they keep it. That’s how they got rich.
4. The stock market remains about 25% below its historic highs before Dubya was president. Considering that nothing has been done to improve confidence in the market, it’s likely to stay that way. How can I know there is value in stocks? If there is a good financial report, is the report true or just the result of finagling by the company’s executives and its auditors?
5. Every day someone sends me an e-mail about the destruction of federally owned forest or the loosening of environmental controls. I like to walk in the woods, and living this close to a nuclear plant, I want those environmental controls TIGHT.
6. The precent of Amercian people living below the poverty level in America continues to increase. The per cent of rich people shows a small increase. The middle class per cent is getting smaller.
7. I hate being lied to, especially by politicians. Where are the Weapons of Mass Destruction? Where is the candidate who said we shouldn't be the world's police force?
8. The government is getting samller, but only those programs which deal with helping the poor are decreasing. The Department of Commerce continues to help business in any way it can.
9. What was said at Dick Cheny's energy meetings, and who said it? Is that where the Iraqi was was planned? Why won't the government release the information the courts have told it to release?
There are the first few of my beefs.
Clare

[vraiblonde]

Clare, don't do that. You're too smart and knowledgeable about politics to come off with that weak stuff.

1. We went to war in Iraq to get the Iraqi oil. I think we could have gotten oil at a lower price elsewhere, and I hate to waste money.

You know darn good and well that's not why we went to war. Are you sorry that dictator isn't still in power? Did you support the things he did to his citizens?

2. We paid for the war with a tax cut, thus creating the highest deficit ever.

The tax rebate happened before the war.

3. “Trickle Down Economics” didn’t work for Reagan and it won’t work for Dubya either.

Trickle Down did, indeed, work. Take a look at any economic graph to see it.

When the rich get money, they keep it. That’s how they got rich.

And do what with it? Stick it in a mattress? Who employs people - the "rich" or the "poor"? Who buys the most goods - the "rich" or the "poor"? BTW, the rich don't get money by keeping it - they get it by earning it. Or swindling people out of it, as the case may be.

4. The stock market remains about 25% below its historic highs before Dubya was president.

I was unaware that Bush controlled the stock market. Please cite your source. And, if you remember, it was under Clinton that inflated stock prices and corporate finangling took place. Enron, anyone?

5. Every day someone sends me an e-mail about the destruction of federally owned forest or the loosening of environmental controls.

That doesn't merit a response.

6. The precent of Amercian people living below the poverty level in America continues to increase.

I'll have to take your word for that until I can run down some stats.

7. I hate being lied to, especially by politicians.

Didn't vote for Clinton, by any chance, did you?

8. The government is getting samller, but only those programs which deal with helping the poor are decreasing. The Department of Commerce continues to help business in any way it can.

Guess why? Because only businesses employ people. And we're trying to get the employment rate back up, aren't we?

9. What was said at Dick Cheny's energy meetings, and who said it?

Who cares? Dick Cheney doesn't have the power to declare war on ANYONE.

[SamSpade]

1. We went to war in Iraq to get the Iraqi oil. I think we could have gotten oil at a lower price elsewhere, and I hate to waste money.

When you started with this - I thought you intended to be funny, until I read further. We don't get that much Iraqi oil to begin with,
although the ones who opposed the war, DO. If we went there for the oil - how come we don't have it yet?

2. We paid for the war with a tax cut, thus creating the highest deficit ever. The deficit shouldn’t be unexpected because:

HUH? We "paid" for the war with negative money? How can you 'pay' for something with a lack of funds?
That tax cut was coming before the war began (and did). The deficit shouldn't be unexpected because:

3. “Trickle Down Economics” didn’t work for Reagan and it won’t work for Dubya either.
When the rich get money, they keep it. That’s how they got rich.

Yeah, they keep it stuffed in their mattresses. Where do you think they put it? And where does the economy need it?
I'll let you put together the rest of that one. Suffice it to say, tax cuts for the rich is redundant because it's
pretty much ONLY the rich who pay any. (Trickle Down, BTW, DID work. For some reason denying this reality has become
tres chic in some circles, but it ain't true. Trickle Down brought the best 7 years the nation had seen, economically,
at that time). What would you do? *Raise* taxes during a recession. It's ok to run a deficit during a recession - it is
normal.

4. The stock market remains about 25% below its historic highs before Dubya was president. Considering that
nothing has been done to improve confidence in the market, it’s likely to stay that way.
How can I know there is value in stocks? If there is a good financial report, is the report true or just
the result of finagling by the company’s executives and its auditors?

PLENTY has been done. The real crime was the balloon at the end of the nineties when all of the stock market bubble
was just so much air with nothing substantial behind it. This is normal business cycle stuff, and if you are watching the
news, you should consider investing RIGHT NOW. Great time to buy.

5. Every day someone sends me an e-mail about the destruction of federally owned forest or the loosening of environmental controls.
I like to walk in the woods, and living this close to a nuclear plant, I want those environmental controls TIGHT.

Living close to a nuclear power plant and relaxing environmental controls aren't related. There hasn't been a new nuclear plant approved
in 30 years. There hasn't been a serious problem at one in 24 years either. But now, we rely so much on oil, while France and Japan get most
of their power from nuclear plants.

6. The precent of Amercian people living below the poverty level in America continues to increase. The per cent of rich people shows a small increase. The middle class per cent is getting smaller.

Huh? Your mistake here is "continues". It's actually dropped off considerably from a few years ago, and the poverty rate is only
recently rising back to mid-90's levels. It correlates statistically well with the recession, and has no other statistical relevance.

7. I hate being lied to, especially by politicians. Where are the Weapons of Mass Destruction?
Where is the candidate who said we shouldn't be the world's police force?

Wanna know something? They're there because ---- the *UN* said they were! Yep. One of the biggest complaints was not do they have
them, but what the heck did they do with the ones we *knew* they had before. We're supposed to believe that Saddam just destroyed
them completely without any paperwork or proof documenting it.

I'm puzzled by the fact tha people want these weapons NOW but were willing to give inspections YEARS (and they DID) to look for them.
Time will tell.

8. The government is getting samller, but only those programs which deal with helping the poor are decreasing.
The Department of Commerce continues to help business in any way it can.

This - is a *complaint*? Seems to me the BEST way to help a poor man is to give him a job. Small businesses employ
the majority of people in this country. You help the poor by giving them a place to work. If you think business is
the enemy, you watched too many Disney movies growing up.

9. What was said at Dick Cheny's energy meetings, and who said it? Is that where the Iraqi was was planned?
Why won't the government release the information the courts have told it to release?

Don't have an answer. Right now, most of what I hear is hysterical tripe run out exclusively by people who hate Cheney.
I'll wait and see.

[Ken King (Premo)]

1. We did? Seems that the way I know the story is that because of Iraq’s failure to comply with UN resolutions the war of 1991 had not ended. Additionally, Congress directly authorized the President to use military force to obtain such compliance.
2. Hang on, we were running at a surplus (at least that is what we were told at the end of the Clinton Era). The excess money needed to be returned to the people that overpaid, the Democrats insisted on the immediate rebate. Then we had 9/11, Afghanistan, the loss of confidence in the stocks when several giants got caught ripping off the people and then Iraq again. Total up the costs for those and you can see why we have the current debt.
3. Sure it works, just takes a while or do you expect a miracle to move our massive economy overnight? Reagan set it into motion, George the First added some extra taxes to it, Clinton – did what? Oh yeah, fell weak on oversight allowing massive frauds and rip-offs, and then dumped it all on George the Second. Now it needs to be set back on course after eight years without control.
4. Highs gained within a small period of time that have adjusted for many reasons, but are still considerably higher (then the late 80s) and continuing to grow now. Free enterprise is ingenious and can grow, if allowed to. We just need the accountability that had been lacking.
5. What the forests that are burning up because the government couldn’t use a managed harvest and replant program because environmentalist prevent any intervention in many areas? If those are your woods keep them your woods and enjoy your walk, but if you don’t own the property why should you stop me from developing it? Nuke plant controls, you bet.
6. And why is that? Is this something that has just started or has the trend been going this way for a while?
7. Bet you loved the Clinton years then. How about Teddy Kennedy, bet he gets your juices going? WMD? 1500 people have just started the looking (other then what the troops found while combat was heavy and they were rolling). They are only about a month into really looking into it. Do you think this can be done with a snap of the fingers? Police force, I sure thought we were at war. Matter of fact a couple, terror and Iraq. It isn’t time to consider a police force (like the UN).
8. Of course it needs to be smaller. Not all of these programs are for the “common good”. Many of them take money from our pockets that we go out and bust butt for while dishing it out to many that are just too damned lazy to get off their butts and make money on their own. Why can’t we get them to work like everyone else? Which is why we should have many commerce incentives.
9. You think the Iraq war was planned by Cheney? Get real and forget about the oil already. It had been coming for awhile and with 9/11 it became a certainty.

[Kain99]

Originally posted by Clare Whitbeck
[b]Where’s the beef, you said.

1. We went to war in Iraq to get the Iraqi oil. I think we could have gotten oil at a lower price elsewhere, and I hate to waste money.

I am honestly stunned at this statement! Who in their right mind believes this rhetoric? Saddam Hussein is... a mass murderer! He not only funded but trained Al Qaeda opertaives!

What is it? 3000 dead is not enough for you?

7. I hate being lied to, especially by politicians. Where are the Weapons of Mass Destruction?

Thank God! That there are people in this world who can think beyond this idiotic crap! I don't mean to be disrespectful Clare but...My God!!

Do you watch televison and say to yourself..... Well, they claim Elizabeth Smart was in her bedroom but where is she now? Can you prove she ever existed? Are you so totally wrapped up in your cushy little life that you cannot comprehend a dictator?

Thousands of miles of sand..... Many countries willing to help Saddam decieve the world and your reaction, is to call the United States liars? Jesus!

You would rather believe a mass murderer from Hell, than to give Republicans any credit?

What does that mean? Maybe it means you should put your azz on a plane and take a trip! Maybe it means your life is just a little to easy! Maybe it means you can't see the forest you so dearly love, for the trees.

Get your facts straight! The Republicans are not involved in a conspiracy! This is not about Oil! This about blood!

[Biscuit]

If saddam had been a US Citizen we would have used the IRS to put him away. Like we did Al Capone.

Since he wasn't we had no other recourse but to blow his butt out of power.

Think of the contriversy if we had used the IRS. Where are all of those reciepts?

[Clare Whitbeck]

quote:Originally posted by Clare Whitbeck
[b]Where’s the beef, you said.

1. We went to war in Iraq to get the Iraqi oil. I think we could have gotten oil at a lower price elsewhere, and I hate to waste money.
Your reply:
I am honestly stunned at this statement! Who in their right mind believes this rhetoric? Saddam Hussein is... a mass murderer! He not only funded but trained Al Qaeda opertaives!
My reply:
Can you provide evidence that Hussein trained Al Qaeda operatives? I thought they were trained in the first country the Bush administration invaded - Afganistan. If you can show me different, I’ll buy it.
There is no question that Saddam Hussein is a nasty, miserable man, and even a mass murderer. But in my opinion the US is in more trouble with the North Korean leader who has a nuclear reactor and nuclear material to disseminate, than we were in with Hussein’s stone age culture. Why is Bush, the man who when he ran asked why the US government was becoming the world’s policeman, now making our country the chief of policing?
As our current deficit shows, America does not have the monetary resources to wage war all over the planet . We need to save the invasions, and the resources they consume, for countries that are genuine threats, such as North Korea. Whatever you may believe about the influence of oil in the Iraq invasion, just wait and see who gets control of all that oil. Then you will be able to understand what the invasion was about. The reason France was so angry with us was that France had agreements with Hussein to process the oil.
One ex-CIA operative has written a book in which he proposes that if we intend to continue having cheap oil in the US, we need to take over the Saudi fields. He points out that the Saudis are the source of both the Al Qaeda leader and his funding. Sorry, I can’t recall the title of the book. By the way, do you know that 25% of the registered voters who were polled a few weeks ago believed that Saddam Hussein planned the destruction of the Twin Towers? Some Americans seem to have forgotten the Al Qaeda leader we were trying to capture in Afghanistan. He was the man who actually planned the Twin Towers murder, remember? Or that’s what the Bush administration told us then.
Can we deal with the statement that Congress authorized the war by reminding everyone that we and Congress were told there were Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq? How could Congress refuse to get Weapons of Mass Destruction away from the madman, Hussein? Only, where are the Weapons of Mass Destruction? Come on folks, you can buy the Bush Administration’s version of this story if you choose, but you should recognize that belief in the current story is more of an act of faith than a conclusion based on fact. By the way, in my opinion there’s nothing wrong with fighting Iraq to get oil if that’s what we need. But a need for oil was not the reason the country was given for this war.
Looks like I got you folks interested. When I get more time, I’ll send some more answers. Keep up the replies. They help me think.
Regards to all,
Clare

[Ken King (Premo)]

Clare,

To “show” you would be to take you there and I have neither the desire nor the ability to do that. However, there have been Al Qaeda training camps discovered in Iraq. Iraqi intelligence personnel had meetings with Al Qaeda operatives prior to the war. Saddam and Osama bin Laden share similar goals, removing the infidel from the region. Since the fall of Baghdad many outside forces have come into the region to keep hostilities stirred up, some have been attributed to the Al Qaeda mechanism. If you can’t connect the dots, you never will. For me I have seen and heard enough to opine that it is probably a truism.

No doubt North Korea is getting to be the next hot bed, but wasn’t this supposedly taken care of via negotiations with the Clinton regime. I mean we paid the bribe they wanted. This is also important to many more than just us and getting the regional players involved is the right way to go. As to your reference to “Stone age” I certainly didn’t recall any scientist or archaeologist digging up any Ak-47s, RPGs, Scuds, etc. that Iraq has. While they might not have a workable nuclear device I am sure they could put together a dirty bomb from what they had available to them.

As to the deficit, do we have the funds to subsidize illegal immigrants that are doing little more than raping our institutions for their free hand outs? I guess you forgot that France’s agreements were beyond the bounds set by the UN food for oil program and that many supposed allies were still selling hardware and providing training to the enemy.

Yep, many Al Qaeda types are Saudis, just as bin Laden, but does that make the whole nation evil, some would say yes but I am unsure. I will give you that we need to tighten our view of them and overturn the carte blanche visa provisions enacted by Bush’s predecessor.

We were given the same information that had been around for years, which BTW was the same information used in 1998 when Clinton lobbed the cruise missiles at Iraq. We didn’t do it for oil, it has never been about oil, and it will never be about oil. Some people just don’t get that, do they? BTW when was the first time that you personally heard mention of the uranium deal?

[Clare Whitbeck]

Thanks for the reply, Ken. I like the quote at the end of your message. It should be apparent to all that I am prepared to fight for what I believe, and I can see that you are, too. Do you recall the source of the information on Al Qaeda training camps? Did we find any such places when we took Iraq? I’ll be honest. I’m not greatly interested in national and international politics until it begins to affect me where I live. In general, I hope the federal government will do its job. My interests are mostly local. However, now I am beginning to be hit where it hurts.
There is a brand new family center in Lexington Park which will have no programs this year. There’s no money for programs for the poor, just tax cuts for the rich. It appears that most folks on this discussion think that’s just great. I don’t because I know what it costs to keep people in prison. Education is much cheaper.
We need another elementary school, a middle school, and a high school. There is not enough money for those projects, either from the State or from the County. Over crowded schools could affect the continuance of base programs.
We could lose the Base if we don’t have affordable housing. There’s no money for that, either.
We need to clean up Lexington Manor so as to make the area outside the Base gate more attractive. To do that, we’ll have to have additional housing vouchers for the people who work at places like Wal-Mart and make less than $20,000 a year. There is unlikely to be enough money for housing vouchers this year unless someone gets off the program.
We may have to undergo the indignity of having slot machines in our community again. I remember what that was like. If we do, it seems unlikely that they will produce enough income to pay for the needed schools.
Maryland college tuition has gone up from 9 - 21 per cent, depending on the school. It’s 9 per cent at St. Mary’s College and 21 per cent at College Park. This not-enough-money thing could wind up costing a whole generation of middle class and poor students their education.
However, those who can afford to send their children to private school, to build any home they might want, to rent any home they might want, to belong to private clubs, and send their children to Harvard will have no problems. The rest of us can do without.
I am not sure how illegal immigrants cost us money. We always have the ability to deport them if we so desire.
With regard to the Saudis, no one thought the entire Iraqi nation was composed of people who support Al Qaeda, but we invaded there. I don’t think the entire Saudi nation is composed of people who support Al Qaeda, but it’s certain that some of them do support it.
Clinton wasn’t my hero, either, but times do change. What was appropriate 4 or 5 years ago may obviously not be appropriate now.
If you don’t think the Iraqi invasion is about oil, then what do you think it’s about?
Regards,
Clare

[Ken King (Premo)]

Originally posted by Clare Whitbeck
Thanks for the reply, Ken. I like the quote at the end of your message. It should be apparent to all that I am prepared to fight for what I believe, and I can see that you are, too. Do you recall the source of the information on Al Qaeda training camps? Did we find any such places when we took Iraq? I’ll be honest. I’m not greatly interested in national and international politics until it begins to affect me where I live. In general, I hope the federal government will do its job. My interests are mostly local. However, now I am beginning to be hit where it hurts.

Yep, we took an Al Qeada site northeast of Baghdad shortly after the war began. Many other links showing connections if you do a basic search.

There is a brand new family center in Lexington Park which will have no programs this year. There’s no money for programs for the poor, just tax cuts for the rich. It appears that most folks on this discussion think that’s just great. I don’t because I know what it costs to keep people in prison. Education is much cheaper.
We need another elementary school, a middle school, and a high school. There is not enough money for those projects, either from the State or from the County. Over crowded schools could affect the continuance of base programs.
We could lose the Base if we don’t have affordable housing. There’s no money for that, either.

Unsure as to what programs will be impacted but maybe if spending control had been a greater priority for the state with the last administration we wouldn’t be in such a fix as we are today. As to losing the Base I don’t see the connection as the base brings in high dollar and high taxed positions. Which should add to the tax base to allow for necessary expansions. Maybe we need to look at the bureaucracy of the Board of Education and trim away at many of the management positions that make the big dollars. How much money does the BOE waste each year that could go to more classrooms (if in fact we really need them)?

We need to clean up Lexington Manor so as to make the area outside the Base gate more attractive. To do that, we’ll have to have additional housing vouchers for the people who work at places like Wal-Mart and make less than $20,000 a year. There is unlikely to be enough money for housing vouchers this year unless someone gets off the program.

More attractive? I just don’t get this I guess. More low value housing has been a concern for years, of course we need more but what developer out there is willing to making the effort?

We may have to undergo the indignity of having slot machines in our community again. I remember what that was like. If we do, it seems unlikely that they will produce enough income to pay for the needed schools.

How is it an indignity to have slot machines? We already suffer the state sponsored gambling via the lottery (Keno and all the scratch cards) and it seems all the money originally earmarked for education made it to the Stadium Authority. Why do we finance stadiums with more enthusiasm than schools?

Maryland college tuition has gone up from 9 - 18 per cent, depending on the school. It’s 9 per cent at St. Mary’s College and about 18 per cent at College Park. This not enough money thing could wind up costing a whole generation of middle class and poor students their education.

Just have to plan better and invest early for our children’s future. I have never seen this as an adventure the government needs to be that involved with.

However, those who can afford to send their children to private school, to build any home they might want, to rent any home they might want, to belong to private clubs, and send their children to Harvard will have no problems. The rest of us can do without.

What are the rest of us doing without? With planning you can save the funds to further your children’s education.

I am not sure how illegal immigrants cost us money. We always have the ability to deport them if we so desire.

Sure we can deport them, but it doesn’t seem to be a priority. You’re not sure how that child of the illegal immigrant that attends our public schools without their parents paying taxes impacts us? Or the ones that us medical assistance cards or obtain many other benefits without ever contributing taxes to the system.

With regard to the Saudis, no one thought the entire Iraqi nation was composed of people who support Al Qaeda, but we invaded there. I don’t think the entire Saudi nation is composed of people who support Al Qaeda, but it’s certain that some of them do support it.

Iraq, was a combination of things, mostly non-compliance with many UN resolutions and never complying with the agreement to end hostilities of the first Gulf War. I believe that they assisted the Al Qaeda machine, but that wasn’t the only reason that we went after them.

Clinton wasn’t my hero, either, but times do change. What was appropriate 4 or 5 years ago may obviously not be appropriate now.
If you don’t think the Iraqi invasion is about oil, then what do you think it’s about?
Regards,
Clare

Well a lot of the problems from that era and earlier were the same problems left at Bush’s feet when he took office. Nothing was done about them and things were made worse by many of that administrations actions.

I would say that the concerns outlined in PL107-243 makes the case as to why we went in there, at least for me it does.