Do you think

[Larry Gude (Premo)]

Originally Posted by PsyOps

To the staunch conservative McCain is a liberal. To a moderate he is moderate or even conservative. To a liberal, he is conservative. It's all relative.

...if we're talking about policy and voting records which is the barometer I meant to imply.

[Larry Gude (Premo)]

Originally Posted by PsyOps

In reality the thought of Obama or Clinton is worse. What have you done to your principles that your resulting vote would place Clinton or Obama in the WH? You may be able to wash your hands of it, but you’re still stuck with a worse scenario.

...100%. Was Carter bad? Sure. Then came Reagan. Had Ford won, what then? People need to remember and understand conservatives and conservatism are not synonymous with Republican. Bush 41 very much looked down on Reagan and Goldwater and the whole 'impractial' idea of conservatism.

McCain does not beget a conservative in our near future. Obama or Hillary may very well. Winning the presidency and congress, as we have seen, is nothing but a step. If, once won with conservative ideas, those ideas are abandoned, then you're left with a simple choice;

Battle your opponents face up or battle your opponents face up and your 'friends' from behind.

John McCain, with his anti free speech record is, by definition, excluded from anything I could remotely support. His iffiness on taxes makes it worse. His latest views on global warming are the last straw.

I'd prefer a one front battle, thank you.

[PsyOps]

Originally Posted by Larry Gude

McCain does not beget a conservative in our near future. Obama or Hillary may very well. Winning the presidency and congress, as we have seen, is nothing but a step. If, once won with conservative ideas, those ideas are abandoned, then you're left with a simple choice;

Battle your opponents face up or battle your opponents face up and your 'friends' from behind.

John McCain, with his anti free speech record is, by definition, excluded from anything I could remotely support. His iffiness on taxes makes it worse. His latest views on global warming are the last straw.

I'd prefer a one front battle, thank you.

My point was not to imply McCain would bring conservatism back to the GOP. I'm simply saying the alternative moves even farther left. Why would we want that for the sake of principle?

Now, the caveat (as you brought in another thread, I think) is let the liberals win to give Americans 4 years of socialist agenda to realize that we need to raise conservatism from the dead. Given the extreme the left has moved to and their intentions of socialism can we afford to let this happen. It's becoming historically American that once you start a social program you can't end it. Give a liberal president 4 years with a liberal Congress and their surrender to the likes of Soros, MoveOn, and other extreme left-wing groups who knows what fruit they will bear?

[Larry Gude (Premo)]

Originally Posted by PsyOps

My point was not to imply McCain would bring conservatism back to the GOP. I'm simply saying the alternative moves even farther left. Why would we want that for the sake of principle?

Now, the caveat (as you brought in another thread, I think) is let the liberals win to give Americans 4 years of socialist agenda to realize that we need to raise conservatism from the dead. Given the extreme the left has moved to and their intentions of socialism can we afford to let this happen. It's becoming historically American that once you start a social program you can't end it. Give a liberal president 4 years with a liberal Congress and their surrender to the likes of Soros, MoveOn, and other extreme left-wing groups who knows what fruit they will bear?

...your argument is a zero sum game. maybe you're right. Maybe the country will be destroyed in four years.

Or, maybe in two years, a tidal wave of right leaning pols get voted in to congress out of shear terror of Hillary or when Obama finally has to take his halo off. Maybe that gives us control over the next two supreme court nominees. Maybe that is where the battle can be turned.

Maybe a McCain win cements Dem control of congress for the next generation.

This is NOT a zero sum game. I don't want a knee specialist working on my heart on the grounds that it is at least better than having a podiatrist do the work. We're not in critical shape. We're still strong.

[PsyOps]

Originally Posted by Larry Gude

This is NOT a zero sum game. I don't want a knee specialist working on my heart on the grounds that it is at least better than having a podiatrist do the work. We're not in critical shape. We're still strong.

Well, McCain may be a knee specialist, but Obama is a carpenter and Hillary is a plumber. Who would you rather operate on your heart?

I have to be honest that I am anxious to see the results. Just as I was saying, when the impending results of the MD elections were coming in, MDers will get what they asked for. And we are. And we will.

[bcp (Premo)]

To vote for him simply because he is a republican by name sends the wrong message.
the party will take it to mean that we agree with him, and that we feel he is representing our concerns in a way we want them addressed.

To totally abandon him in favor of anyone but him (except for the shrieking witch) tells the party that they can not just shove anyone up there and expect us to blindly follow regardless.

Four years of Obama just might stretch this country to its limits, but if the republicans listen and run a worthy conservative opponent against him next time, it might be possible to start taking the country back and fixing what he broke.

This is perfect, what could send a stronger message to the party than for its own members to abandon their candidate in favor of a black muslim liberal thats married to a woman that hates the country.
Its just priceless.

[rockfish]

Originally Posted by bcp

To vote for him simply because he is a republican by name sends the wrong message.
the party will take it to mean that we agree with him, and that we feel he is representing our concerns in a way we want them addressed.

To totally abandon him in favor of anyone but him (except for the shrieking witch) tells the party that they can not just shove anyone up there and expect us to blindly follow regardless.

Four years of Obama just might stretch this country to its limits, but if the republicans listen and run a worthy conservative opponent against him next time, it might be possible to start taking the country back and fixing what he broke.

This is perfect, what could send a stronger message to the party than for its own members to abandon their candidate in favor of a black muslim liberal thats married to a woman that hates the country.
Its just priceless.

That's kind of like cutting your nose off to spite your face, isn't it?

[bcp (Premo)]

Originally Posted by rockfish

That's kind of like cutting your nose off to spite your face, isn't it?

no its not. Im looking long term, you are thinking short term.

Originally Posted by Larry Gude

...a matter of perspective. An awful lot of people voted for McCain in the primaries, so, if the people are the party, McCain is the people's choice and he is the party. I think most people pretty much agree this is a conservative issue more than a GOP issue. He is very much in the mold of Bush 41 and, as we've learned, Bush 43. So, he's a Republican, very much so. Just not a conservative one. And that leads me to a final comment, is it really fair to call him a liberal? Again, he's not a conservative on most issue, but he is far more so than his two leading rivals on plenty of issues.

The PR campaign to label him this hard core right wing ideologue is well under way which is a bit of a hoot considering how the hard core right wing views him.

I agree with Larry. McCain is a Repubican, he's just not a Conservative. The reason that McCain is viewed as "liberal" is that he tends to go the other way when there is a push for something by Republicans, and I attrirbute this to his oft stated and well documented issues with authority. On issues where Republicans can go either way, McCain is usually with the Republicans. On issues where the leadership is calling for everyone to vote a certain way, he'll try to stake out his own position of take the other side's position.