Good read on McBama...

[This_person]

Originally Posted by Bruzilla

I'll just ask you the same question I ask all people who like to brag on McCain for being a maverick and demonstrating INDIVIDUAL thought: have you looked at when he does, or doesn't, display such thinking? Of course not. You really should take a look at that. On issues where individual thought are encouraged, McCain is 100% with Republicans. On issues of great importance to Republicans, where a party-line vote is called for, that's when McCain starts showing his INDIVIDUAL thinking. That's not being a maverick, or individual thinking, that's just resentment at being told what to do, and McCain has acknowledged he has a real problem with that.

If McCain really were a maverick/individual thinker, he would apply that concept to all the issues he considered, not just the critical ones where the Republican leadership insists everyone vote the same way.

Supposition, assumption, innuendo (I probably spelled all of those wrong! )

Back it up.

[Pete (Premo)]

Originally Posted by Bruzilla

Excellent point! You think that McCain used excellent judgement in his forming of the Gang of 14, especially given that the Democrats now have a majority. Let's look at that analysis for a moment.

What was the initial purpose of the Gang of 14? It was to prevent Frist from using the nuclear option to get conservative judges their fair vote in the Senate. The effect of these fillibusters was that the minority party in the Senate was in fact determining who could be nominated to the courts, which is the President's job not their's, regardless of which party is in charge. Frist made the decision to use it, and McCain undercut his authority. Did he do the right thing? Well, what was the outcome on judges? Republicans got commitments that three nominees (Janice Rogers Brown, William Pryor, and Priscilla Owen} would get their votes, but the agreement also stated that there would be no consideration given to any judge but these three. There was never an agreement that would allow what was correct, which was all judges should get a hearing... just those three judges. So we traded the nuclear option for three judges and the legitimizing of the practice of denying nominees their votes and William Myers and Henry Saad never got their votes. As usual, the Dems got everything they wanted, we got next to nothing.

Also, the Gang of 14 agreement only lasted during the 109th Congress. McCain didn't bother to make his little gang the norm, or rules change that would eliminate the nuclear option for everyone. Nope... he negotiated an agreement where the Dems are free to do whatever they want now. And if they decide to use the nuclear option themselves if Republicans try to fillibuster, do you think a second Gang of 14 will be created? I doubt it. Once again, as with most deals McCain engineers, the Democrats get the best part of the deal and the Republicans get the poopy end of the stick.

Your perspective is tainted The judges never would ever get a vote regardless. The rules were what they are and none of the judges were going to get a vote without the GOP going nuclear. If the GOP had broken the seal on the nuclear option you can bet your hairy ass the democrats would be using it at will. As it stands the GOP did NOT do it which now takes away the "well they did it to us" out clause if the dems try it now. In the end, McCain and the gang brokered a compromise that got the GOP 3 judges out of the 5 they wanted, which is 3 more than they were going to get. I think, as usual, you are selling McCain short. The Gang of 14 also got us Alito, and took the party line filibuster away from Reid.

The GOP gained 3 appeals court judges and a Supreme Court Justice, the democrats got nothing.

[This_person]

Originally Posted by Bruzilla

I don't get to determine those, the Republican leadership does. Maybe a good indicator is those issues where the Republican leadership would say "Party unity is essential to getting this bill passed" or "We need to get every Republican to vote for this"? Shouldn't be too hard for you to figure it out.

On the issues where McCain votes contrary to Republicans they do tend to be bad for Republicans.

The Republican leadership gets to decide when individual thought is allowed (I'm so sorry I missed this before my last post).

That's your measure of when individual thought is allowed, when party leadership tells them it's allowed!!!!?????!!!!


Thank God we're not all as good at individual thought as you are!

[Larry Gude (Premo)]

Originally Posted by Bruzilla

To the first... ah... no.

To the second, I hear what you're saying now, but I also hear you making excuses for McCain. I'm confident that by November you will be sufficiently brainwashed to pull the lever for McCain.

...have I EVER made an excuse for McCain? I have written numerous times that he has committed the one unpardonable sin; violence to the first amendment.

Condi on the ticket? I gotta think about it. Other than that, NFW.

George Will recently remarked that the idea of voting for McCain because of scotus appointments would be problematic because it would be to accept that he would nominate the type of judges that would reject the laws he likes.

[Pete (Premo)]

Originally Posted by Larry Gude

...have I EVER made an excuse for McCain? I have written numerous times that he has committed the one unpardonable sin; violence to the first amendment.

Condi on the ticket? I gotta think about it. Other than that, NFW.

George Will recently remarked that the idea of voting for McCain because of scotus appointments would be problematic because it would be to accept that he would nominate the type of judges that would reject the laws he likes.

Being in Maryland and my vote wont really count anyway I planned on voting for someone else like Barr or writing in Keyes. Then Bruzilla started and now I am going to vote for McCain 10 times if I can figure out a way. He may lose but no one will ever be able to point at me and say I caused Obama.

[Larry Gude (Premo)]

Originally Posted by Pete

Being in Maryland and my vote wont really count anyway I planned on voting for someone else like Barr or writing in Keyes. Then Bruzilla started and now I am going to vote for McCain 10 times if I can figure out a way. He may lose but no one will ever be able to point at me and say I caused Obama.

...Pete, but, at present, Sen. McCain is, at least on the ballot, a GOP'er. As such, you can only vote for him once.

Originally Posted by Pete

Your perspective is tainted The judges never would ever get a vote regardless. The rules were what they are and none of the judges were going to get a vote without the GOP going nuclear. If the GOP had broken the seal on the nuclear option you can bet your hairy ass the democrats would be using it at will. As it stands the GOP did NOT do it which now takes away the "well they did it to us" out clause if the dems try it now. In the end, McCain and the gang brokered a compromise that got the GOP 3 judges out of the 5 they wanted, which is 3 more than they were going to get. I think, as usual, you are selling McCain short. The Gang of 14 also got us Alito, and took the party line filibuster away from Reid.

The GOP gained 3 appeals court judges and a Supreme Court Justice, the democrats got nothing.

You're trying to defend the indefensible... a trait normally seen from Democrats. You say the judges would never get a vote regardless. That's the whole problem. The President is supposed to nominate judges and the Senate is to vote on them. That's the rule. The Dems perverted that rule, and usurped the President's powers, by misusing the threat of a fillibuster. If the Founders had wanted the minority party in the Senate to determine who can be voted on for a judgeship I'm sure they would have written things up that way.

Ever hear of the old saying "those who sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither", well that applies here. McCain and his pals traded the president's power for some alledged security that no future Senates would invoke the "nuclear option". But what guarantee did McCain get? As usual, none. The Dems got to lock out the judges they really didn't like, and didn't have to give a thing away. As soon as the 109th Congress was over, so were any and all agreements. There's nothing to stop the Democrats from using the nuclear option against Republicans if they decide to do so.

Your whole point of view is nothing but appeasement! The issue is not who did what to who first, the issue was the Dems usurping presidential powers. Had the nuclear option been used, the President's will would have been the determining factor, just as it is supposed to be. Instead McCain and his pals legitimized the tactics that the Dems were using, which wouldn't have been such a tremendous failure if hd had also taken steps to ensure that the Dems could never use the option once they took control, but he didn't bother with that. The Dems are free to do whatever they want, and if they decide to use the option I'm sure they won't worry about chumps like McCain.

[Larry Gude (Premo)]

Originally Posted by Bruzilla

McCain and his pals traded the president's power for some alledged security that no future Senates would invoke the "nuclear option". But what guarantee did McCain get? As usual, none.

You're not wrong about EVERYTHING.


I was LIVID with McVain for that BULL####. I soooooooo wanted a showdown with those bastards. Gang of 14. My azz. "Hmmm...how can I get some TV time and get my buds to say some more of that 'maverick hero' #### for my 2008 resume? A ha!!!"

Originally Posted by This_person

The Republican leadership gets to decide when individual thought is allowed (I'm so sorry I missed this before my last post).

That's your measure of when individual thought is allowed, when party leadership tells them it's allowed!!!!?????!!!!


Thank God we're not all as good at individual thought as you are!

Once again... you're trying to confuse the issue. I think it's a great thing for a politician to show some independent thought and use their heads when their party is on the wrong side of an issue. My point is you need to look at when someone does, or doesn't do it. Again, go back and look at McCain's record. He doesn't deviate from Republican pisitions except for when there are calls for party unity and partyline votes. That's when the "you can't tell me what to do!" mindset kicks in and McCain suddenly shows "independent" thought. He's not being independent or a maverick, he's just being another guy who grew up in a regimented household and resents authority. It's the same reason he bucked the system at his HS, the USNA, the Navy, and now the Senate.

If you tell McCain to feel free to march to the left or the right, he'll march to the right most times. If you tell him he must march to the right, he'll go straight or to the left just to show he's doesn't have to listen to anyone, and the Left has been very hansomely rewarded for this personality defect. All they have to do is convince McCain that he's being forced to do something he doesn't want to do and voila! Useful Idiot time!