Should we just let GM, Ford and Chrysler fail?

[ylexot (Premo)]

Originally Posted by Larry Gude

Like it or not, unless we want the United Arab Emirates buying GM with their left over beer money of the staggering sums we've pissed away on oil the last 4 years, we need to help them.

Fine with me

[ylexot (Premo)]

Originally Posted by Pete

Is it because the imports are skirting tarifs and/or fullfilling a backroom pledge to avoid tarifs while GM is seeking cheaper labor?

You know something like

Mr. Toyota, you make a nice car, it will really be a shame when we slap a $5,000 import tax on it.

Oh Senata, that vewy bad business. How we avoid such a tax?

Well I suppose if you build a plant in my State............

We do that! We rove Ketucky!

Also fine with me. OH NO! JOBS COMING TO THE US!

[itsbob (Premo)]

Originally Posted by onebdzee

The government has already done it to the trucking industry....If you buy a big truck(i.e. Peterbilt, Kenworth, Freightliner, etc) that was manufactured after 2007, it has all the emissions crap on it....which makes the fuel mileage go from an average of 7mpg to 4 and they can't pull the load that they were designed to pull worth a crap

Caterpillar has said that because of this and all the other government regulations that they are imposing, they will stop making engines for the big trucks in 2009

So the engine produces half the pollution, but has to burn twice as much fuel..

Sounds like zero gain to me.

[Myuzishin]

American car company woes are mostly due to their inability to forsee a necessary change and adapt to it. They've been given countless 'bailouts' and subsidies by the gov't in the past (by both republican and democratic administrations/congresses) and yet they continue to be in trouble. Why is that?

Calls for smaller, more fuel efficient vehicles began in the 70's oil embargo crisis (remember gas lines, kids?). At that time, people begrudgingly turned to the only (at the time) makers of quality affordable fuel-efficient vehicles available, Japanese ones. Lots of Americans thought it unpatriotic to buy a Japanese car, but over the years were regularly laughed at at the gas pumps. As they grew more popular, American car companies tried to duplicate the success of the Japanese. However, their hastily designed and poorly produced vehicles quickly showed a quality control issue that Japanese manufacturers had never suffered from. In frustration, American companies tried to niche their markets, concentrating on SUVs for soccer moms and Hummers for Terminator wanna-bes. All fine and good, until gas goes up to $4 a gallon.

If they fail, its not the union's fault. The progress made by unions to secure pay and benefits for their workers has been a tough fight, and the industry would still be enjoying their pool of virtual slave-labor had it not been for the union efforts.

Part of the problem is market saturation. Ill conceived dealership locales and excessive fund drain thru advertising and self promotion robs them of capital that could be used to improve their products and their reputations, which to this day still suffer inferiority (perceived and actual) to foreign manufacturers.

Should they be allowed to collapse? I don't see see it happening, there are other ways for them to survive besides a bailout (Chap 11, mergers, etc.)

In the meantime, I'll buy a Honda and save my pennies. I want some Tesla stock when it IPOs

[Bann (Premo)]

Here's what I have to say about this : I have no idea if we should bail them out! Just make it all the talk of bail outs go away, I'm sick of hearing about it!

[Jigglepuff (Premo)]

Originally Posted by Myuzishin

American car company woes are mostly due to their inability to forsee a necessary change and adapt to it. They've been given countless 'bailouts' and subsidies by the gov't in the past (by both republican and democratic administrations/congresses) and yet they continue to be in trouble. Why is that?

Calls for smaller, more fuel efficient vehicles began in the 70's oil embargo crisis (remember gas lines, kids?). At that time, people begrudgingly turned to the only (at the time) makers of quality affordable fuel-efficient vehicles available, Japanese ones. Lots of Americans thought it unpatriotic to buy a Japanese car, but over the years were regularly laughed at at the gas pumps. As they grew more popular, American car companies tried to duplicate the success of the Japanese. However, their hastily designed and poorly produced vehicles quickly showed a quality control issue that Japanese manufacturers had never suffered from. In frustration, American companies tried to niche their markets, concentrating on SUVs for soccer moms and Hummers for Terminator wanna-bes. All fine and good, until gas goes up to $4 a gallon.

If they fail, its not the union's fault. The progress made by unions to secure pay and benefits for their workers has been a tough fight, and the industry would still be enjoying their pool of virtual slave-labor had it not been for the union efforts.

Part of the problem is market saturation. Ill conceived dealership locales and excessive fund drain thru advertising and self promotion robs them of capital that could be used to improve their products and their reputations, which to this day still suffer inferiority (perceived and actual) to foreign manufacturers.

Should they be allowed to collapse? I don't see see it happening, there are other ways for them to survive besides a bailout (Chap 13, mergers, etc.)

In the meantime, I'll buy a Honda and save my pennies. I want some Tesla stock when it IPOs

[2ndAmendment]

Originally Posted by Myuzishin

... I want some Tesla stock when it IPOs

At $109,000 each, it is not the every family vehicle.

The first company to come up with a similar vehicle that sells for something close to a Chevy Malibu will be in. Tesla costs too much; it is a specialty vehicle like a H1 Hummer.

Originally Posted by Bann

Here's what I have to say about this : I have no idea if we should bail them out! Just make it all the talk of bail outs go away, I'm sick of hearing about it!

Agreed.

This one IS necessary though. If they go under, millions of jobs would be lost and this country would go into a depression.

[Larry Gude (Premo)]

Originally Posted by Beaver-Cleaver

Agreed.

This one IS necessary though. If they go under, millions of jobs would be lost and this country would go into a depression.

...that's total non sense. Ford and GM sell cars. They just don't sell enough of them to be profitable.

If you had a business that sold 8 widgets a day but needed to sell 9 to stay in business OR cut the cost of the 8 to equal out to the profit you'd make by selling 9 either you would find a way to get that done OR you'd go out of business and someone interested in selling 8 widgets a day at a profitable price would buy up the pieces of your company and go on from there.

We're not talking about buggy whips here. We're talking about companies that need to cut costs.

The same thing WOULD have absolutely happened with AIG and the rest of the bail out benefactors.

These bail outs are economic and social insanity not to mention exercises in stupidity. Look at your basic premise; the companies will disappear absent the bail out. Where does it make ANY sense to bail out something that is in such bad shape it will evaporate into thin air without an infusion of cash?

It doesn't. Because it's not that bad.

[GWguy]

It's kinda like the discussion on bailing out Starbucks. They tried to be a major player by expanding and putting a store on every corner and then some. Turns out it was a bad plan, and they loose money. That's the nature of being in business. You make a plan, and hope it works. If it doesn't, you cut your losses. That could mean closing stores and losing people. Should they be bailed out because they are a big name and employ lots of people? Nope. Nor should GM. Let them go Chapter 11, reorg and develop a new business based on TODAY'S economic climate.