Should we just let GM, Ford and Chrysler fail?

[GWguy]

They were talking about it on the news tonight, and the general consensus is to NOT use the bailout funds to bailout the big 3. You should have heard the GM and Chrysler execs trying to justify their position with world disaster scenarios.

[Bann (Premo)]

Originally Posted by GWguy

They were talking about it on the news tonight, and the general consensus is to NOT use the bailout funds to bailout the big 3. You should have heard the GM and Chrysler execs trying to justify their position with world disaster scenarios.

Well, when I heard about all the pension plans they're supporting - it started to make me think more about it all. It's like I said with the military retirees. The ballgame changed for them when times changed. The government didn't want to support the huge mammoth of healthcare for the retired military. Fine, ok. I thought it was crappy to all those men & women who had already served their time & when they joined they had promises made.

Maybe the same thing has to happen in private industry, too. Those companies have to take it to their stockholders and figure out what to do & how to cut costs. Stop offering those big discounts for families & extended families. (My ex-BIL had a discount on every Ford he bought for members of his own family - and his dad had been retired 20 years) There are plenty of ways to cut costs.

Originally Posted by Bann

(My ex-BIL had a discount on every Ford he bought for members of his own family - and his dad had been retired 20 years) There are plenty of ways to cut costs.

yeah and how many actually took advantage of it .... did it really cost FORD that much ?

[BuddyLee]

Let them fail. They're not doing anything, not restructuring or anything.

Why bail em' out?

[Myuzishin]

Originally Posted by Pete

The whole "If it weren't for unions there would be slave labor" mantra is old and worn out aside from being completely untrue. There was a time for unions which has passed. their still might be uses for them but the days of them holding absolute power over employers is just plain wrong. They sent whatever industry they infect right down the crapper.

Steel industry.....gone

Airlines are either in bankruptcy, just coming out of bankruptcy or waiting to file bankruptcy.

Ship building.........gone

Auto industry......on the verge of being gone.

Textiles.........gone

Clothing and shoes.........gone

I'm willing to take back the Slave Labor part, as I learned today that GM workers make an avg of 75/hr, while Toyota workers make 50/hr. However, my earlier point about market saturation stands. GM has over 7000 US Dealerships. Toyota 1500, Honda just over 1000.

Not buyin the arguments above, tho. Because we don't dominate the world in a particular industry (anymore) doesn't make it 'gone'. There are still plenty of ships made in the US (wouldn't be surprised if some of em were made out of steel), and the Japanese car companies that have plants all over the south (remember? the ones that are outdoing US car makers at the moment?) didn't exactly bring all their own workers. There are plenty of Americans makin a fine living with those folks, at a lower cost of living too.

[Dougstermd (Premo)]

Originally Posted by BuddyLee

Let them fail. They're not doing anything, not restructuring or anything.

Why bail em' out?

oh young grasshopper you have a lot to learn in this world.

[toppick08 (Premo)]

Originally Posted by Pete

I disagree. Auto manufacturers have been given subsidies and tax breaks by both parties to, develop MPG and safety requirements forced on them by the government, maintain their viability and allow them to compete with imports. Aside from Chrysler in 1979 none have been "bailed out".

The Big 3 are not very nimble in navigating the changing economy because they are completely handcuffed by the UAW. Adjusting workforce is like moving a mountain, people being carried on overhead because of union rules, skyrocketing costs all spell DEATH in a market where the competition is immense, domestic auto manufacturers are at a disadvantage because of the unions, and profit margins are thin.

For many years now Detroit has improved quality and design and ranked at the top or near the top with their import competitors. Look at JD Power reviews, ford, and GM are equal to or above their import counterparts. A lot of it is conception left over from decades ago.


Chevy wins mid-size and Ford right behind it
Ratings | J.D. Power

Look at compact multi use, Honda won but look at Ford Escape and Chrysler Pt Cruiser, both ranked just as high.
Ratings | J.D. Power

Large car, winner Pontiac next was Mercury
Ratings | J.D. Power

Trucks, winner Chevy
Ratings | J.D. Power

Mid size SUV, Dodge Durango
Ratings | J.D. Power

It goes on and shows that the quality gap has closed and has been closed for some time. If a person wants to cling to the conception GM, Ford and Chrysler sucks because of the POS Chevy Vega they had in 1977 as a reason to buy Japanese there is little anyone can do.

One of the other reasons they have trouble is because they are building what sells. People wanted SUV's and trucks so they built them. People wanted mini vans so they built them. Americans are hopelessly short sighted and forgot the gas crunch in 1976 within weeks of it ending, same with the recent gas prices. They also knew if they built a sub compact few would ever sell because people a) Did not want sub compacts and b) if they did want one they were predisposed to buy an import because of the wider selection and established brand line. GM tried to bust into the compact and sub compact market with the GEO and it failed.

The whole "If it weren't for unions there would be slave labor" mantra is old and worn out aside from being completely untrue. There was a time for unions which has passed. their still might be uses for them but the days of them holding absolute power over employers is just plain wrong. They sent whatever industry they infect right down the crapper.

Steel industry.....gone
Airlines are either in bankruptcy, just coming out of bankruptcy or waiting to file bankruptcy.

Ship building.........gone

Auto industry......on the verge of being gone.

Textiles.........gone

Clothing and shoes.........gone

..I know of one that's hanging pretty tough...

[Larry Gude (Premo)]

Originally Posted by Myuzishin

I'm However, my earlier point about market saturation stands. GM has over 7000 US Dealerships. Toyota 1500, Honda just over 1000.

Not buyin the arguments above, tho. Because we don't dominate the world in a particular industry (anymore) doesn't make it 'gone'. There are still plenty of ships made in the US (wouldn't be surprised if some of em were made out of steel), and the Japanese car companies that have plants all over the south (remember? the ones that are outdoing US car makers at the moment?) didn't exactly bring all their own workers. There are plenty of Americans makin a fine living with those folks, at a lower cost of living too.

...not only that, but we already have something approaching one car for every person old enough to drive in the nation. That means a household of four has one for mom, one for dad, one for sissy and one for boy. That means for every person living in the city who doesn't even have a car, there is, statistically, one for them and I have a city friend who has NEVER owned a car.

Now, there IS market globally where the emerging nations, India, China, Brazil, etc, have about one car per 100 driver aged people.

You knew something was wrong 30 years ago when the Japanese could make a better car, cheaper, AND ship it 1/2 around the world. Now, they've earned market share and it's gonna be tough earning it away from them.

[Bann (Premo)]

Originally Posted by RadioPatrol

yeah and how many actually took advantage of it .... did it really cost FORD that much ?

I have no figures to give you, if that's what you want. But if my boss discounted every job he did, he wouldn't make much money. Maybe it doesn't save that much money - but what are auto companies doing to sacrifice anything in order to stay afloat? The companies need to take a look at what their doing and CHANGE it. Doing the same thing over & over and getting the same results and yet still whining about it - is stupid.

[Bann (Premo)]

Mitt agrees with me - let 'em go bankrupt.



http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/op...y.html?_r=1&hp