Should we just let GM, Ford and Chrysler fail?

[Pete (Premo)]

Caterpillar. prime example.

Originally Posted by wiki

Caterpillar came close to bankruptcy in the early 1980s, at one point losing almost $1 million per day due to a sharp downturn in product demand as competition with Japanese rival Komatsu (who at the time used the internal slogan "encircle Caterpillar"[27]) heated up. The company also suffered when President Ronald Reagan declared an embargo against the Soviet Union after they invaded Afghanistan, causing the company to be unable to sell millions of dollars worth of pipelaying equipment it had already built. The impact of the embargo on the company was about $400 million.[28]

The results were layoffs and massive labor union strikes, primarily by the United Auto Workers against plants in Illinois and Pennsylvania. Several news reports at the time indicated that products were piling up so high in facilities that temporary workers hired to work the lines could barely make their way to their work stations. Caterpillar suffered another long labor disagreement, locking out union workers in the 1990s and hiring what it termed "permanent replacements."

Caterpillar's response to these labor conflicts was to "farm out" much of its parts production and warehouse work to outside firms: rather than fighting the union, Caterpillar has made itself less vulnerable to the tools traditionally available to organized workers. Caterpillar also made effective use of office staff during the disputes, suspending research and development work to send thousands of engineers and others into their factories to fill in for striking or locked out union members.

Caterpillar also embarked on its "southern strategy," opening new small plants, termed "focus facilities", in right to work states such as North Carolina (Clayton and Sanford), South Carolina (Greenville), Mississippi (Corinth), Tennessee (Dyersburg), and Georgia (Griffin and LaGrange), where labor laws provide fewer protections for workers seeking to organize.

[Myuzishin]

Originally Posted by Pete

We dominate the world in NO industry anymore. Every American Icon has either folded up or moved overseas......why? Labor costs.
Why are the Japanese beating us with their factories scattered all over the south? Labor costs.

Phooey. There are many reasons people have operations in the south. Among them, environmental regulations, cost of living, taxes, land leases, etc. Its no secret that operating a business in JoeBob AL is cheaper than downtown Detroit.

Other than DOD contracts what shipyard in America is still producing ships?

Who gives a rat's ass about who's contract it is. Last time I checked, there was pretty damm good money to be made from Military contracts. Again, simply because we don't rule the world doesn't mean our industries are floundering.

As far as GM having 7000 dealerships I don't understand how that puts them at a disadvantage. Since the dealerships are not owned by GM they do not hurt them do they. That is like saying that Coke is hurting itself by being in TOO MANY retail outlets. Regardless, if the dealerships fail because they will not be competitive, then fine let them.

Well, Pete, consider the product. Doesn't matter that some of the dealerships may be privately FRANCHISED. The damm things have to be stocked with cars, do they not? Its a bit different sending Cokes to retailers than cars because Cokes don't cost 20K+ each to make, Cokes don't require warranties, people typically don't need financing to buy Cokes, Soda Zone doesn't depend on Coke to make spare parts to stay in business, etc. Altho, 'twood be nice if I could trade in a used Coke for a new one each time huh.... Apples. Oranges. Done.

[Pete (Premo)]

Originally Posted by Myuzishin

Phooey. There are many reasons people have operations in the south. Among them, environmental regulations, cost of living, taxes, land leases, etc. Its no secret that operating a business in JoeBob AL is cheaper than downtown Detroit.



Who gives a rat's ass about who's contract it is. Last time I checked, there was pretty damm good money to be made from Military contracts. Again, simply because we don't rule the world doesn't mean our industries are floundering.



Well, Pete, consider the product. Doesn't matter that some of the dealerships may be privately FRANCHISED. The damm things have to be stocked with cars, do they not? Its a bit different sending Cokes to retailers than cars because Cokes don't cost 20K+ each to make, Cokes don't require warranties, people typically don't need financing to buy Cokes, Soda Zone doesn't depend on Coke to make spare parts to stay in business, etc. Altho, 'twood be nice if I could trade in a used Coke for a new one each time huh.... Apples. Oranges. Done.

It doesn't matter where GM has a domestic plant, the UAW has a long reach. The UAW has an office in Arlington Texas just like the one in Flint Michigan. Foreign companies are not unionized and face it, the only reason they are assembling cars here is because of political reasons to avoid tariffs.

As far as ship building contracts the only reason I said "other than DOD" is because they HAVE to be built here. If left strictly up to bid I am sure the Japanese would love to submit a bid for building Arleigh Burke DDG's and I bet it would be cheaper than Ingalls and BIW.

You made my point about the dealerships, more outlets = more availability = easier sales. There is no difference in cans of cokes and cars in a supply demand economy other than the size of the deal. So if you cut GM dealerships back to 1500 from 7000 they would just have more cars at them sitting in the lot and the dealerships volume would increase. I do not see how having too many dealerships is a root cause of collapse. GM doesn't build X number of cars to be sure dealer lots are full, dealers order and GM builds what they want based on sales. It cost the dealer to have a car sit in inventory over 25 days so that curtails them from over ordering. GM doesn't pay dealer salaries, sales people do not get medical and dental from GM and they don't make $71 per hour, they sell cars or they don't independent from GM.


Next point is if there is going to be a giant black hole in auto manufacturing if GM goes under why doesn't Toyota buy them and turn them around using their model of efficiency? Because if they buy GM outright they will have to honor the UAW contracts GM signed and they want no part of that.

[pixiegirl]

In my very uneducated opinion on the matter.... I say let them fail, I wish they would have let wall street fail as well. Not to sound crass but I could really give two craps less about the hundreds of thousands of people that will be out of work. I've been laid off and you know what I did, made do, I didn't collect a penny of unemployment. If I got laid off tomorrow, I'd make do again. They chose their jobs and industry. This is the country of infinite possibilities and if you chose a career that pigeon holes you so badly that you can do nothing else then don't expect any sympathy from me when that doesn't quite work out for you. I'm personally at the point where I'd be apathetic to the colapse of our ecomony and moreso anxious to see a rebuild of everything because what's happening now obviously isn't working. I could give a crap about the "whole" anymore and it surely doesn't give a crap about me.

[Myuzishin]

Originally Posted by Pete

You made my point about the dealerships, more outlets = more availability = easier sales. There is no difference in cans of cokes and cars in a supply demand economy other than the size of the deal. So if you cut GM dealerships back to 1500 from 7000 they would just have more cars at them sitting in the lot and the dealerships volume would increase. I do not see how having too many dealerships is a root cause of collapse. GM doesn't build X number of cars to be sure dealer lots are full, dealers order and GM builds what they want based on sales.

I'm pretty sure GM makes cars quantized based on previous sales, projected sales, and number required to recoup development/manufacturing costs. Has nothin to do with orders from dealerships. That only affects how they move cars around.

GM has complete control over how many dealerships there are, regardless of who pays that particular electric bill. They have too many, and they have too many cars on the market. Your bit about supply and demand dictates that, if your sales suck and you have too much inventory, you're gonna lose money, which is why they're burning thru their capital (based largely on their plummeted stock price) at a breakneck pace. Additionally on the subject of dealers, GM supplies these offices with everything they need to do business - cars, parts/option installations, brochures, logo-emblazoned sales receipts, etc. So as the parent company they have a huge stake in the number and success of their dealerships.

[BuddyLee]

Originally Posted by Dougstermd

oh young grasshopper you have a lot to learn in this world.

I'm not keen to giving up my money to failures.

[Plan B]

Originally Posted by pixiegirl

In my very uneducated opinion on the matter.... I say let them fail, I wish they would have let wall street fail as well. Not to sound crass but I could really give two craps less about the hundreds of thousands of people that will be out of work. I've been laid off and you know what I did, made do, I didn't collect a penny of unemployment. If I got laid off tomorrow, I'd make do again. They chose their jobs and industry. This is the country of infinite possibilities and if you chose a career that pigeon holes you so badly that you can do nothing else then don't expect any sympathy from me when that doesn't quite work out for you. I'm personally at the point where I'd be apathetic to the colapse of our ecomony and moreso anxious to see a rebuild of everything because what's happening now obviously isn't working. I could give a crap about the "whole" anymore and it surely doesn't give a crap about me.

Well. Bless your heart...

meanwhile, back at the ranch:
Just Announced: 2009 Consumer Guide Best Buys
Kia Rondo midsized car? Mazda 5?

GM cars to make the list

Chevy HHR Recommended Compact Car
Chevy Malibu Best Buy Midsized Car
Saturn Aura Recommended Midsized Car
Caddy CTS Best Buy Premium Midsized Car
Pontiac G8 Best Buy Large Car
Caddy DTS Recommended Premium Large Car
Chevy Corvette Best Buy Premium Performance Car

GM SUV's to make List

Saturn Vue Recommended Compact SUV
Lambda Sweep!!
Chevy Traverse, GMC Acadia, and Saturn Outlook ALL picked as Best Buys in Midsized SUV
Buick Enclave Best Buy Premium SUV
Chevy Suburban, Chevy Tahoe, and GMC Yukon ALL picked as Best Buy for Large SUV
Caddy Escalade Recommended Premium Large SUV

Trucks are TBA. Guess they are awaiting the Tundra's return from the dealer.

[Dougstermd (Premo)]

Originally Posted by BuddyLee

I'm not keen to giving up my money to failures.

oh because you are sending The union companies of the US personal checks???

[BuddyLee]

Originally Posted by Dougstermd

oh because you are sending The union companies of the US personal checks???

When it's all boiled down, pretty much.

[Dougstermd (Premo)]

Originally Posted by BuddyLee

When it's all boiled down, pretty much.

and then you will be complaining why do we give soo much in forgien aide when we should be helping out our domestic brothers and sisters. Realize that loaning these companys money has no bearing on the fact that you are gona pay taxes. Its not uncommon for companies and banks to borrow money from the goverment.

JMHO