Miranda; Downfall of the US?

[vraiblonde]

I would like to point out that Miranda is only one of the legal technicalities that can result in a case being thrown out.

[Larry Gude (Premo)]

Originally Posted by vraiblonde

I would like to point out that Miranda is only one of the legal technicalities that can result in a case being thrown out.

True enough. However, Miranda is the concept, writ large, that you can, in fact, get away with a crime on technical grounds. Do we all not agree that professional criminals know and manipulate the system and circumvent it to the detriment of us all, getting away with crime?

[vraiblonde]

Originally Posted by Larry Gude

True enough. However, Miranda is the concept, writ large, that you can, in fact, get away with a crime on technical grounds. Do we all not agree that professional criminals know and manipulate the system and circumvent it to the detriment of us all, getting away with crime?

Criminals are typically too dumb to know things like that. It's their lawyer who allows them to get away with crime. And sometimes it's the jury. Occasionally it's a judge.

[Merlin99 (Premo)]

Originally Posted by Larry Gude

You must be kidding? There is a huge recent case in Texas where some illegal got set free because he wasn't told he had a right to contact his freaking embassy by the local cops in a timely fashion and the Bush Justice Department took the illegals side and infuriating the locals.

I mean, I'm not prepared to rattle of volumes of chapter and verse but don't we all know that, given our crime rates and our conviction rates and the laws that are on the books that don't seem to be much enforced, that there is a GREAT deal of evidence nullification on technical grounds in this country?

That wasn't a Miranda case, it was an international agreement (Vienna convention), I'm talking only of miranda rights. I know it must happen, if only to provide fodder for the movie of the week, but personally I've never seen it.

[Larry Gude (Premo)]

Originally Posted by Merlin99

That wasn't a Miranda case, it was an international agreement (Vienna convention), I'm talking only of miranda rights. I know it must happen, if only to provide fodder for the movie of the week, but personally I've never seen it.

Would you agree that it is of a kind, the argument in favor of technical relief from actual crime? I think it's bull#### when some diplomats son runs someone over, drunk driving, and just skips town. He should have NO right to enjoy US privileges absent US responsibilities.

[Larry Gude (Premo)]

Originally Posted by vraiblonde

Criminals are typically too dumb to know things like that. It's their lawyer who allows them to get away with crime. And sometimes it's the jury. Occasionally it's a judge.

You know, personally, of behavior of criminals knowing exactly how it works and conducting themselves accordingly. You told me the story.

[vraiblonde]

Originally Posted by Larry Gude

You know, personally, of behavior of criminals knowing exactly how it works and conducting themselves accordingly. You told me the story.

You're right. It's ALWAYS some master criminal who knows how to play the game. Why, Ernesto Miranda was such a genius that he got a whole legal procedure named after him so ALL criminals could go free.

Enjoy your argument. I'm out.

[Larry Gude (Premo)]

Originally Posted by vraiblonde

You're right. It's ALWAYS some master criminal who knows how to play the game. Why, Ernesto Miranda was such a genius that he got a whole legal procedure named after him so ALL criminals could go free.

Enjoy your argument. I'm out.

You didn't say he was a master criminal. You said they all knew how the game was played and that the smarter ones typically did better and the dumber ones typically messed up.

[Libertarian]

Originally Posted by Merlin99

Larry,
Have you ever heard of anyone being set free because they were not read their rights? I know it happens on TV and the movies all of the time, but in real life I've never seen a case where it has.

I am also not aware of any real life cases of criminals being set free due to them not being read their Miranda rights. Even in the case of Miranda (this may or may not have been already covered in this thread), only his confession that was given after failure of police to advise him of his right to remain silent was suppressed; other evidence in the case was upheld and he was still convicted of the rape (I believe a lesser charge was thrown out).

It is far more likely (in my non-legal opinion) for charges to get dropped due to overburdening of the system. To demonstrate this to yourself, simply go to one of the local courthouses one day and sit through some criminal cases, including initial appearances. Watch how many of them in which the prosecutor tells judge he or she wishes to "nolle pros" the case (effectively drop charges) or place on the "stet docket" (which means charges will not be pursued providing the subject does not get into any trouble within a certain time period). (Incidently, many of them are for marijuana possession and paraphernalia...now, imagine how much of our tax dollars were spent for a police officer to make the arrest (often on OT), for a commissioner to set bond, for a public defender (sometimes) to represent the subject, for a prosecutor to review the case, for a judge to call the case, etc., just for charges to be dropped. Do you see why I think the drug war is a failure?

[vraiblonde]

Originally Posted by Libertarian

imagine how much of our tax dollars were spent for a police officer to make the arrest (often on OT), for a commissioner to set bond, for a public defender (sometimes) to represent the subject, for a prosecutor to review the case, for a judge to call the case, etc., just for charges to be dropped. Do you see why I think the drug war is a failure?

Sounds to me like it's our judicial system that's the failure.