Condi is WRONG...

[SamSpade]

Originally Posted by Larry Gude

Great. Leave the keys it. It's A'stan; it won't start. If it does, it ain't running for long. Nothing works in A'stan.

Sometimes I hate using metaphors with you, because you don't follow them at all.

The keys in the ignition represents an open opportunity for al-Qaeda to flourish without restriction. Leaving it be just makes it easier for them. It's kind of like not wanting rats in your house. You want them gone? Get rid of the rubbish pile out back. Don't want mosquitoes? Get rid of standing water and spray the region.

If we don't want terrorists hitting us, don't give them a freakin' terrorist Hilton to play in.

[Larry Gude (Premo)]

Originally Posted by SamSpade

Sometimes I hate using metaphors with you, because you don't follow them at all.

The keys in the ignition represents an open opportunity for al-Qaeda to flourish without restriction. Leaving it be just makes it easier for them. It's kind of like not wanting rats in your house. You want them gone? Get rid of the rubbish pile out back. Don't want mosquitoes? Get rid of standing water and spray the region.

If we don't want terrorists hitting us, don't give them a freakin' terrorist Hilton to play in.

What you meant to say is you hate using metaphors with me because I don't let you get away with using bad ones.

The key in the ignition analogy is good because it describes the opportunity for them to take off with the car. However, the car, the Afghanistan car, is a broken down, useless piece of ####. So, who cares if they have a useless car?

Do you remember part of the propaganda involved in getting us to go after those nasty Talibans? They did an honor killing in a soccer video and we were shown vids of women being swatted with sticks for improper dress and we were shown audio cassettes torn apart and draped over a tree. Those international menaces!

The FACT of the matter is that the critical planning and training for 9/11 happened IN THE US and in Germany. Should we invade? Take the keys away from them? The meetings that occurred in A'stan were, yes, high level and important, however, they could have and did also happen with messages or in Somalia or Western Pakistan or, frankly, still, to this day, in Afghanistan.

You, like many others, it seems, are wedded to some sort of fantasy of how much we've accomplished in Afghanistan. Or how much we can accomplish.

Someone pointed out that we've stopped further attacks over the last several years, including recently. Yeah, we stopped them HERE. How can that be if having our military in Afghanistan stops that sort of thing?

So, if the argument is no terror training grounds that they have the 'keys' to, when do we invade Germany? Somalia? Western Pakistan? Some other #### hole?

Condi is wrong and it's sad that, to this day, the Bush bull#### fantasy stories about making these places bastions of Jeffersonian democracy still work.

[Lenny]

Originally Posted by glhs837

Which one?


(Edit to add that evidently, typing "Bush doctrine" triggers the contextual ad for Sarah Palin)

Sorry, had an automotive emergency and had to leave the forum.

Bush Doctrine: "We will seek out and destroy those who would so us harm and any country that provides sanctuary to them." (paraphrased)


BTW: This mention of "Bush Doctrine" only brought up AOL.Com and Wallet.Pop banner ads. Nothing about Sarah Palin.

[itsbob (Premo)]

Originally Posted by vraiblonde

If we do not fight against Al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations on their own turf, where they are, where would be a better place to fight them?

Downtown NYC, DUR!

Take the fight to them, keep them engaged, and kill them all.

FIgure in the last 8 years, there's several THOUSAND less then there were on 9/11 that COULD plan to attack us.


I think the answer is turn the reigns over to our generals, send in what they want to FINISH the war, and stop pussy footin around.

Make Afghanistan our 58th State.

[itsbob (Premo)]

I did see Larry, Moe and Curly at the UN yesterday.. WHAT a hoot.. and whoever planned the daily speakers, and the sequence..

CLASSIC Stooges!!

[itsbob (Premo)]

Originally Posted by Larry Gude

How we SHOULD have dealt with A'stan was simply go in on an as needed basis, whack a camp and/or some fine folks and leave. Specops teams. A small team had Osama cornered and submitted a plan to come in behind his KNOWN position, cut him off and kill him. Everything was in place but, it was decided it would be preferable if the locals did the deed so, politics came in and the game was over. It all fell apart and our efforts descended into endless managing of bad and worse choices.

Now, inserting small units would be crazy because a team is now going to try to sneak in and hit some camp or some guys who are surrounded by BATTLE tested troops who are intimately familiar with US close quarters battle tactics, weapons and support. Conversely, they also have their own advanced knowledge of small unit tactics against us, what works for them, electronics, etc.

We've made mobs of clueless tough guys into quasi armies of much better soldiers who will have that much easier time taking over A'stan WHEN we get out. They are also now more capable of taking on the Pak army.

Spec Ops don't win wars, and they don't have enough people to win the "hearts and minds". If you go in and just bomb the crap out of them they become martyrs to the cause, and they'll use it to recruit more. You need to kill them, then have a long term presence to take care of the survivors and families.

These aren't educated people, they are easy marks for terrorists and religous groups oR us. Who ever wins their hearts FIRST wins.

You can't do THAT from Creech AFB in Nevada.

[Larry Gude (Premo)]

Originally Posted by itsbob

Spec Ops don't win wars, and they don't have enough people to win the "hearts and minds". If you go in and just bomb the crap out of them they become martyrs to the cause, and they'll use it to recruit more. You need to kill them, then have a long term presence to take care of the survivors and families.

These aren't educated people, they are easy marks for terrorists and religous groups oR us. Who ever wins their hearts FIRST wins.

You can't do THAT from Creech AFB in Nevada.

There is NO war or 'hearts and minds' to win. Ask the Brits. Ask the Russians. These people only stop fighting one another when their is some foreign idiot to fight.

All I am talking about is pest control; go kill the occasional leader. And leave. Make it look like someone else did it. Blame the Russians. The Brits. Swine flu.

[ImnoMensa]

Originally Posted by itsbob

Spec Ops don't win wars, and they don't have enough people to win the "hearts and minds". If you go in and just bomb the crap out of them they become martyrs to the cause, and they'll use it to recruit more. You need to kill them, then have a long term presence to take care of the survivors and families.

These aren't educated people, they are easy marks for terrorists and religous groups oR us. Who ever wins their hearts FIRST wins.

You can't do THAT from Creech AFB in Nevada.

You are right. These people have been run by someone all through their history and they dont really give a good flying crap who that person is, they are only interested in survival. If they have to wear Burka's and beat the crap out of their wives , it's just part of that survival. We arent going to wion over these people so why try. Just pull out and napalm the poppy fields until they get tired of growing the dope.

Oop's too much money being made to do that, right?

[itsbob (Premo)]

Originally Posted by Larry Gude

There is NO war or 'hearts and minds' to win. Ask the Brits. Ask the Russians. These people only stop fighting one another when their is some foreign idiot to fight.

All I am talking about is pest control; go kill the occasional leader. And leave. Make it look like someone else did it. Blame the Russians. The Brits. Swine flu.

Afghans drove the Russians out the same way the Vietnamese drove us out.. Used the media, and the propagande to turn the population against the war that they were winning..

We can succeed in Afghanistan, we just have to decide that we want to.

[Larry Gude (Premo)]

Originally Posted by itsbob

Afghans drove the Russians out the same way the Vietnamese drove us out.. Used the media,

Yeah, that good old free Soviet press.

Shirley, you jest.

The Russians got their asses kicked because it was a bad idea against a bad ass opponent on their turf who the Soviets underestimated and their troops bore the brunt of a mismanaged affair and lost heart.

The USSR inflicted horrific casualties on the Afghans. They just don't have a clue what it means to NOT fight.

PS; The media had nothing to do with us losing in Vietnam. All they did was report the painful facts; the war was being run half assed. Walter Cronkite didn't tell Eisenhower and other major figures of the era to stay the hell out of Southeast Asia. They knew it wouldn't work long before there was a Walter Cronkite.