Obama; World President...

[vraiblonde]

Originally Posted by ImnoMensa

Larry had great hopes for the Bush Presidency and those hopes did not come to fruition. Now instead of getting over it he blames everything on Bush. He is personally hurt that Bush wasnt the hero he thought he would be so he blames bush for everything since the Titanic sank. He needs to get over it .

I can tell you right now that's not what it is. He didn't even vote for Bush the first time around - he wrote in Alan Keyes.

The second time around, I'm pretty sure he wasn't all that high on Bush because we sat together and heckled his SoU speeches.

This BDS set in shortly after I moved down here. So I can only logically attribute it to the fact that he is a lone male, like the Unibomber, who has no one to bounce his ideas off of before he solidifies them in his mind. That, and he's also watching a lot more Olbermann, etc, because I wouldn't have that crap on in my home.

Now he will come on here and tell me to #### off.

Seriously, I believe it's disappointment in the GOP, not Bush in particular. Larry does not believe me when I tell him that people are basically stupid and only want to sit around and eat Cheetos for dinner and surf for porn on the intardweb, with no regard for the future or consequences. We have been arguing about this almost as long as we've known each other, literally since our second date.

He has this idea that people will do the right thing simply because it's the right thing. My argument is...look around you. We've raised children together and we have both seen that his theory is demonstrably not true. We have been involved in each others' businesses, knowing the players and playees very well, and how it all works.

Larry believes the best in people, which is a wonderful characteristic. It jibes well with my pessimism and general distrust, combined with my disdain for human nature. I have no rose-colored glasses. Larry's rose-colored glasses compliment the stars in his eyes.

(For that I will earn a double #### off )

I am a realist - here's what it is, now work with it.

Larry is an idealist - here's what it *should* be, now let's figure out how to make it that way.

[Lenny]

Originally Posted by vraiblonde

I can tell you right now that's not what it is. He didn't even vote for Bush the first time around - he wrote in Alan Keyes.

The second time around, I'm pretty sure he wasn't all that high on Bush because we sat together and heckled his SoU speeches.

This BDS set in shortly after I moved down here. So I can only logically attribute it to the fact that he is a lone male, like the Unibomber, who has no one to bounce his ideas off of before he solidifies them in his mind. That, and he's also watching a lot more Olbermann, etc, because I wouldn't have that crap on in my home.

Now he will come on here and tell me to #### off.

Seriously, I believe it's disappointment in the GOP, not Bush in particular. Larry does not believe me when I tell him that people are basically stupid and only want to sit around and eat Cheetos for dinner and surf for porn on the intardweb, with no regard for the future or consequences. We have been arguing about this almost as long as we've known each other, literally since our second date.

He has this idea that people will do the right thing simply because it's the right thing. My argument is...look around you. We've raised children together and we have both seen that his theory is demonstrably not true. We have been involved in each others' businesses, knowing the players and playees very well, and how it all works.

Larry believes the best in people, which is a wonderful characteristic. It jibes well with my pessimism and general distrust, combined with my disdain for human nature. I have no rose-colored glasses. Larry's rose-colored glasses compliment the stars in his eyes.

(For that I will earn a double #### off )

I am a realist - here's what it is, now work with it.

Larry is an idealist - here's what it *should* be, now let's figure out how to make it that way.

"A cynic is a disappointed optimist."

[Larry Gude (Premo)]

Mensa and Vrai,

Truly compelling exposes, there, kids. Lotta thought and effort there. The problem I have with people like you who do not like hearing how bad Bush messed up is that you simply do NOT want to look at the issues in and of themselves, that the details don't much matter.

It's fine for my wife to insult me, just as mean as she likes, that I am sitting around planning on murdering people such is my disappointment and isolation and coping skills. It's not true or even close, especially to people who know me. It is pathetic and insulting but, hey, she's my wife. No one know how to hurt me worse. At least it allows her to avoid the issues and actually discuss TARP or the wars or oil or...any of it.

Mensa, the disappointment you suggest I feel is my problem with Bush and it's that simple. I defended Bush in the forums, on Iraq. I thought he was being clever handing checks out to the masses. I thought the same thing when he did the expansion of medicare. I figured he knew what he was doing when it came to oil and housing and fanny and so many other issues. Then, the results started coming in.

As for Vrai, she claims to be a realist, 'just deal with what is'. That's fine. That's what we, people, do day to day. Yet, it is far closer to the truth that she would become a unibomber than I because she feels anger and resentment at the mistakes people made even worse than I do, be it a public figure she doesn't personally know or someone she does know. She is the 'You CAN'T do that! person and she has righteous outrage and indignation when she sees wrong. It's one of her better character traits; STRONG sense of justice and right and wrong.

At the end of the day, these are discussion forums, an outlet for ideas and conversation. The intellectual release I get in here may well be what keeps me from being a lone nut job! The point is that we discuss, we argue and my problem is that many folks on the right simply look at Bush's mistakes and shrug; at least he's a Republican!

Yet, many of you, me included, felt true outrage at the things Clinton did that debased our nation, his office and our political life; The definition of 'is' and what sex was or was not, oral sex on the evening news, an economy based entirely on people lying about their financial statements in order to sell stock. Bush, to his credit, did fix that, the laws and his pal Ken Lay, convicted and on the way to jail.

It would be nice if we stop having people like Clinton and Bush and Obama as presidents. That's not likely if the bottom line is simply the letter at the end of their names, the tug of war over our national leadership.

Bush expanded entitlements, greatly, when they needed to be reigned it.

He expanded government, greatly, with the Soviet sounding DHS.

We saw $150 oil under his watch.

We saw the loss of trillions of dollars in home value, most peoples most important asset, even after Bush himself, warned Fanny needed to be fixed before calamity befell us all.

Bush made it fashionable to actually hand out checks to the masses at tax time, like candy.

He saw nothing wrong with port security being run by a government owned entity. Not a foreign company, a foreign government. Anyone recall the outrage when Clinton gave away port access to the Chinese?

Both wars were run from DC, a long time recipe for disaster. Iran has been the key beneficiary in the Middle East in addition to oil producers. We've gained...what? The core reason for our Middle East involvement, oil, oil dependency, was not addressed, by an oil president no less, at all.

We actually had a president go into his final years with a VP who was not using that great advantage to run for president, political suicide.

Then we get to a GOP president actually bailing out the UAW, letting them get away with paying for the decisions they'd made over the years. Absolving them of their responsibility. Vrail should have been heard to say "You can't DO that!"

Then the coup de grace, TARP.

All of those things were harmful and damaging, some deeply and with long term implications. The best conversation I have heard about TARP is that it had to be done. That right there, 'it had to be done' is usually all is needed to set my wife off on an argument that stupid things never NEED be done.

Vrai is right, I am an idealist. Ideals are what we were founded on. Ideals are what runs our nation and our lives. Ideals are what make us better, or used to. We're not Europeans that just run around like animals from one appetite to the next. At least we're not supposed to be.

Bush failed and failed spectacularly. That is my argument. Did he love his country? You say so yet, in my view he hurt it, greatly. His mistakes opened the door for the overt socialism of Obama.

So, what about tomorrow? Most of you do not want to talk about Bush mistakes and understand them. I think some of you don't really have a clue what he did wrong. I argue that by understanding, if only in general terms, what went wrong and why, THAT is how we prevent it from happening again, or at least try to. What's the point of supporting the GOP if they are going to do bad things to the nation, be as bad as liberals?

I understand the 'sticking with your own team because it's the only choice argument'. I just don't agree with it. Pick an analogy; Do you stick with a bad plumber, a bad marriage, a bad doctor, no matter how they perform, because you think they are, at core a well meaning good person? Or do you start working towards better? Raise the bar rather than just accept that it is lowering?

I would like it if the GOP comes out of this as an improved party for the people and for the nation. Or fade into histories pages.

Vrai's point that most people are stupid is all well and good, well, in my view, that's why people need leadership, good leadership.

And, in my view, Bush failed, terribly. And that hurts us all, whether we be sheep or have a good idea of how things do work. At the end of the day, leadership, individuals DO matter. That means arguments about ideas Do matter. That means who wins does, or should, matter.

Or, maybe you all are right; Bush wasn't all that bad and he's just some cog that could only do so much, victim of circumstances, the media, people's stupidity, whatever. If that's true, if who is president really doesn't much matter, then why are you so worried about Obama? Why do you care?

Because it DOES matter.



Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go work on my manifesto and build some bombs.

Actually, I have to pay some bills and make come company decisions so I can enjoy my free time I always get in October.