Conservatives/liberals - Page 4

Vince · 10-24-2009, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vraiblonde

Well, wait a minute:

If a liberal doesn't approve of gays, he doesn't become one.
If a conservative doesn't approve of gays, he wants their rights taken away.

If a liberal doesn't approve of abortion, she doesn't get one.
If a conservative doesn't approve of abortion, she wants it outlawed.

So it works both ways.

That's why I'm moving away from calling myself a conservative, because I'm not one. I'm a "depends on the issue" person.

I'm a conservative, and being Catholic I don't approve of gays or abortion. Doesn't mean I want their rights taken away or abortion outlawed.

Gays have the right to be who they want to be and just because I disapprove, doesn't mean I or the gov't should run their lives. As for abortion, I can't make the decision for someone to get an abortion or not, but then I've always gone by the thinking of "Who are you killing?" Might be the next genius to cure Cancer or on the other side, it might be the next serial killer. You take your chances with each and every child brought into the world.

This_person · 10-24-2009, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by itsbob

You don't want an abortion, don't have one..

Simple solution..

Good advice, and I've never had an abortion.

However, I don't kill other people either, and I still think it should be against the law for others to kill other people, too. Even if they are inconvenient people.

This_person · 10-24-2009, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Animal

If you don't know why should I bother showing you? And what does a court decision concerning Gitmo detainees have to do with citizenship?

Because you make the claim the the Constitution requires citizenship to provide protection.

Here's a link to the Constitution. Please provide me the article.

Quote:

Killing what, don't you have to be born and thus alive before you can be killed?

You do have to be alive, yes. Like a fetus is alive.

Animal · 10-24-2009, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by This_person

Because you make the claim the the Constitution requires citizenship to provide protection.

Here's a link to the Constitution. Please provide me the article.

Article IV, Section 2, further amplified by the XIV Amendment, Section 1. Now show me in the Constitution where noncitizens are afforded protection?

Quote:

You do have to be alive, yes. Like a fetus is alive.

That is your contention, but the fact remains it is still not yet born.

PsyOps · 10-24-2009, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Animal

It seems the Constitution already covers this by stating that one must be born or naturalized to be a citizen and thus protected.

But I'll play your what if game. Let's say that they are deserving of constitutional protection, how will you guarantee those rights that you seek to confer to the unborn? If you are serious wouldn't you have to require any female that gets pregnant to register so that the progress of the development up until birth can be followed to assure that the unborn are being protected? Wouldn't you then have to require that any/all miscarriages and still-borns be investigated for potential wrongdoing? Who is going to handle the registration and investigation process, for without it the rights you seek to give them are meaningless? Do you plan to dump that back on the states or will you seek another government managed program?

You’re not getting what I’m saying.

It’s not my what-if game. It was Vrai that posed the theory that unwanted pregnancies are PFFs. So ask Vrai this question. I subscribe to the belief that an unborn “fetus”, from the point of conception, is a human being; as much so as you and me. They are THE most innocent among us. So, my question to Vrai is, if this is her position, then it has to be agreed that they are human, they are felons, and deserve the same rights and you and me accused of a crime. It’s a silly discussion to begin with, and I think Vrai meant it that way.

For the record (as I have said so in so many of other threads), I do not believe abortion should be banned. I believe it’s wrong, but it’s not my place, AND CERTAINLY NOT THE GOVERNMENT’S, to tell a woman what her decisions are. The only roll I would play in all of that is to pray that she have peace in her decision because I know it’s an impossibly difficult one. If we are going to determine one’s decisions though, then perhaps what we should legislate is whether someone should actually get pregnant in the first place. Both are ridiculous propositions. We, as a society, should work towards behaving more responsibly. If you don't want to get pregnant, don't have sex. A simple concept that seems to be impossible to follow. You can’t legislate responsibility. So it’s up to us as a collective to come to that reality. But, that is a mythical place that will never happen. We are a spoiled, me-first, blame something or someone else society. We want what feels good without the consequences. Instant gratification. So the abortion issue will never get resolved by banning it. It will only get resolved when this society (supposedly a civilized society) realizes that life is sacred and we have a responsibility towards each other to regard each human as important, from conception to death.

But, I’m a realist and know this will never, ever, ever happen.

Animal · 10-24-2009, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PsyOps

You’re not getting what I’m saying.

It’s not my what-if game. It was Vrai that posed the theory that unwanted pregnancies are PFFs. So ask Vrai this question. I subscribe to the belief that an unborn “fetuses”, from the point of conception, is a human being; as much so as you and me. They are THE most innocent among us. So, my question to Vrai is, if this is her position, then it has to be agreed that they are human, they are felons, and deserve the same rights and you and me accused of a crime. It’s a silly discussion to begin with, and I think Vrai meant it that way.

For the record (as I have said so in so many of other threads), I do not believe abortion should be banned. I believe it’s wrong, but it’s not my place, AND CERTAINLY NOT THE GOVERNMENT’S, to tell a woman what her decisions are. The only roll I would play in all of that is to pray that she have peace in her decision because I know it’s an impossibly difficult one. If we are going to determines one’s decisions though, then perhaps what we should legislate is whether someone should actually get pregnant in the first place. Both are ridiculous propositions. We, as a society, should work towards behaving more responsibly. You can’t legislate responsibility. So it’s up to us as a collective to come to that reality. But, that is a mythical place that will never happen. We are a spoiled, me-first, blame something or someone else society. We want what feels good without the consequences. Instant gratification. So the abortion issue will never get resolved by banning it. It will only get resolved when this society (supposedly a civilized society) realizes that life is sacred and we have a responsibility towards each other to regard each human as important, from conception to death.

But, I’m a realist and know this will never, ever, ever happen.

Isn't it kind of hypocritical to say that a fetus should be protected but abortion shouldn't be banned? I guess your feelings aren't really that strong or you are attempting to blow smoke up our collective asses.

*Merlin99* ^(Premo) · 10-24-2009, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PsyOps

Are you pretending to not know that some people believe abortion is murder?

Sorry it's two completely different things.

PsyOps · 10-24-2009, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Animal

Isn't it kind of hypocritical to say that a fetus should be protected but abortion shouldn't be banned? I guess your feelings aren't really that strong or you are attempting to blow smoke up our collective asses.

The "protection" clause I am referring to is completely hypothetical, based on the Vrai’s theory that all unwanted pregnancies are PFFs. It’s something that doesn’t exist since you can’t test whether an unwanted birth would always result in a future felon. No more so than someone that was a “wanted” birth. IF (hypothetically), you are going to say that a fetus is a PFF then you have to admit that it is a human life. All American human lives are protected by the constitution. But, since this is a completely ridiculous hypothetical, then you can just toss it out.

The fact is, our society doesn’t seem to have such a regard for the human fetus. It’s far simpler to abort it when you can’t hear it cry and open its eyes. That’s why partial birth abortions are legal as long as the head doesn’t pop out. The perception is, if the head pops out and the child takes its first breath of air, starts crying and opens its eyes, it’s truly human and then it becomes murder. A really strange mindset, but as I mentioned before, I’m am not going to take the position of deciding, or allowing my government to decide, how a woman makes this decision.

I have extremely strong feelings towards abortion. I think it defines our regard to life. When we can slaughter human life, life that can’t speak for itself, we have plunged into a really dark place when it comes to life. This isn’t a legal matter for me, it’s a moral matter. And morals are a societal thing and not to be defined by any specific individual, group or government. In the same sense the Islamic world holds the same regard for women as we do about the human fetus. They can be disposed of at will if it gets in the way of another purpose in our lives. In America we reject the thinking Muslim hold on women. But they think it’s perfectly normal just like most Americans think abortion is normal. I find both utterly crazy.