Conservatives/liberals

[vraiblonde]

Originally Posted by This_person

So, it should be mandated? Some form of statistical test to determine the likelihood of PFF, and kill the kids who are likely to become the felon?

I'm not going to buy into your hyperbolic hysteria. Sorry.

My statement stands and you can turn cartwheels and twist yourself into a pretzel all you want.

[PsyOps]

Originally Posted by Merlin99

Abortion and murder, sorry I thought it was evident what I was talking about.

I just lost track of what you and I were discussing. Sorry.

That's a tough one for me. Since I do regard a fetus, from conception, as a human, I do regard it as murder. It's hard for me to believe that people have a lower regard for the human fetus, simply because it's still at a certain developmental stage. If you truly look at it, even after birth the human is still developing, it’s just for some folks the clock begins at birth. Why is that? How did we come to this conclusion?

To a degree, though, I understand the rationale. Once that child is out and in the arms of the mother, true responsibilities begin. It’s far easier to “dispose” of the child before the parents have to take on the responsibilities of keeping that child alive. My argument is more related to our regard for life. I feel abortion has caused a mentality of cheapening life. Abortion started out as a simple first – maybe second – trimester procedure. Now there are late-term and partial-birth abortions; and EVEN Obama supported born-alive abortions. This is hugely disturbing to me that we have allowed such disposal of life to occur. At some point we have to believe, as a whole society, when it does become murder or I can see a point where it will be justified to kill your born child up to a certain age because it became too difficult or the parents perceived that their child would likely become a felon.

But, as I mentioned before, this will never, ever, ever happen.

[vraiblonde]

I think all you charming and lovely conservatives should regulate sex. Then you won't have to worry about unwanted pregnancies.

[Animal]

Originally Posted by PsyOps

The "protection" clause I am referring to is completely hypothetical, based on the Vrai’s theory that all unwanted pregnancies are PFFs. It’s something that doesn’t exist since you can’t test whether an unwanted birth would always result in a future felon. No more so than someone that was a “wanted” birth. IF (hypothetically), you are going to say that a fetus is a PFF then you have to admit that it is a human life. All American human lives are protected by the constitution. But, since this is a completely ridiculous hypothetical, then you can just toss it out.

Once born they are, until birth show me were any protection is afforded.

The fact is, our society doesn’t seem to have such a regard for the human fetus. It’s far simpler to abort it when you can’t hear it cry and open its eyes. That’s why partial birth abortions are legal as long as the head doesn’t pop out. The perception is, if the head pops out and the child takes its first breath of air, starts crying and opens its eyes, it’s truly human and then it becomes murder. A really strange mindset, but as I mentioned before, I’m am not going to take the position of deciding, or allowing my government to decide, how a woman makes this decision.

Fact is that regard for human life is phased in stages and the later the stage of pregnancy (aka viability) the more protection that is afforded the fetus.

I have extremely strong feelings towards abortion. I think it defines our regard to life. When we can slaughter human life, life that can’t speak for itself, we have plunged into a really dark place when it comes to life. This isn’t a legal matter for me, it’s a moral matter. And morals are a societal thing and not to be defined by any specific individual, group or government. In the same sense the Islamic world holds the same regard for women as we do about the human fetus. They can be disposed of at will if it gets in the way of another purpose in our lives. In America we reject the thinking Muslim hold on women. But they think it’s perfectly normal just like most Americans think abortion is normal. I find both utterly crazy.

But you said abortion shouldn't be banned, did you not? So it seems your feelings aren't as strong as you believe or you simply lack conviction. What are your moral feelings on the death penalty, should that be allowed or are some lives okay to be snuffed out? I'm okay with abortion and I'm okay with the death penalty.

[Animal]

Originally Posted by PsyOps

I just lost track of what you and I were discussing. Sorry.

That's a tough one for me. Since I do regard a fetus, from conception, as a human, I do regard it as murder. It's hard for me to believe that people have a lower regard for the human fetus, simply because it's still at a certain developmental stage. If you truly look at it, even after birth the human is still developing, it’s just for some folks the clock begins at birth. Why is that? How did we come to this conclusion?

To a degree, though, I understand the rationale. Once that child is out and in the arms of the mother, true responsibilities begin. It’s far easier to “dispose” of the child before the parents have to take on the responsibilities of keeping that child alive. My argument is more related to our regard for life. I feel abortion has caused a mentality of cheapening life. Abortion started out as a simple first – maybe second – trimester procedure. Now there are late-term and partial-birth abortions; and EVEN Obama supported born-alive abortions. This is hugely disturbing to me that we have allowed such disposal of life to occur. At some point we have to believe, as a whole society, when it does become murder or I can see a point where it will be justified to kill your born child up to a certain age because it became too difficult or the parents perceived that their child would likely become a felon.

But, as I mentioned before, this will never, ever, ever happen.

You are aware that partial-birth abortions have been banned under Federal Law?

[chernmax (Premo)]

Originally Posted by vraiblonde

Well, wait a minute:

If a liberal doesn't approve of gays, he doesn't become one.
If a conservative doesn't approve of gays, he doesn't want the gay agenda shoved down their throats!

If a liberal doesn't approve of abortion, she doesn't get one.
If a conservative doesn't approve of abortion, he doesn't feel taxpayer dollars should fund it!
So it works both ways.

That's why I'm moving away from calling myself a conservative, because I'm not one. I'm a "depends on the issue" person.

FIXED!

[vraiblonde]

Originally Posted by chernmax

FIXED!

I would rather spend a few bucks now on abortion than a lot more on the PFF's incarceration later.

Think about who has abortions - hint: it's not suburban middle class types with education and any sort of moral standard. So let them kill their spawn and I have no problem with it. In fact, I wish more of them would do it.

About gays, they should have a right to marry legally. To not allow them to do so is government discrimination. I agree that churches shouldn't have to marry anyone they don't want to marry. Indeed, many churches won't marry you if you're not part of their congregation, so what's the problem?

Just because you (and I mean that generally, not personally toward Chernmax) don't like something doesn't mean you can prevent others from engaging in it, if it causes no harm to you. I am offended frequently by some of the ignorant comments on here, but you don't notice me even banning any of you from the board, let alone trying to make you against the law.

[Baja28]

Originally Posted by vraiblonde

but you don't notice me even banning any of you from the board,

Scuse me. I can dispute this.

[PsyOps]

Originally Posted by Animal

Once born they are, until birth show me were any protection is afforded.

Once again you are missing my point. I’m saying IF you regard a fetus as a PFF, then you must admit that it is a human being. As far as I know the constitution affords rights to ALL human beings. Let’s put it a different way, there are already precedents set that is someone murders a pregnant woman and the fetus dies, the person can be charged with two murders.

SuzyB.org :: Man Kills Pregnant Woman After She Refuses to Have an Abortion

Watch the video. And here:

California Man Convicted of Double Murder, Killing Pregnant Girlfriend Unborn Child

Three are many of these stories of convictions of murder for killing a fetus. So, apparently under precedence the law does see in some circumstances where killing a fetus is murder. So, what I can gather from this is, the only protection a fetus has is if the mother really wants to keep the child, then it is considered murder. Well, is it a human or not?

Originally Posted by Animal

Fact is that regard for human life is phased in stages and the later the stage of pregnancy (aka viability) the more protection that is afforded the fetus.

So, exactly when does a fetus become viable? Exactly when? And explain how you come to this conclusion? And how did we come to the conclusion that it’s not truly a LIFE until it’s viable; as defined by some person or people?

Originally Posted by Animal

But you said abortion shouldn't be banned, did you not? So it seems your feelings aren't as strong as you believe or you simply lack conviction. What are your moral feelings on the death penalty, should that be allowed or are some lives okay to be snuffed out? I'm okay with abortion and I'm okay with the death penalty.

I have already stated that I have no desire to make abortion illegal. As I said, it's a choice the mother and father have to make. My feelings are strictly from a moral standpoint not legal. A child/fetus is guilty of nothing. A convicted murderer is guilty of their crime. There are consequences in our laws to people that commit heinous crimes. A fetus made no conscience effort to do anything wrong to deserve having their life snuffed out. So the consequence of their death is the irresponsible behavior of two adults (and I’m not talking about rape, incest and other extreme means that a woman may become pregnant; so please don’t try to throw that in there). How do you even compare the two?

[itsbob (Premo)]

Originally Posted by vraiblonde

About gays, they should have a right to marry legally. To not allow them to do so is government discrimination. I agree that churches shouldn't have to marry anyone they don't want to marry. Indeed, many churches won't marry you if you're not part of their congregation, so what's the problem?

.

This is where I disagree..

Marriage should be church recognized covnenant.. There should be no "recognition" of a couple as the gov't SHOULD ONLY recognize us as individuals. There should be no tax benefit to being married, and marriages shouldn't be overseen by the gov't, but if you as a couple, gay, straight, animall want to get married, it should be between you and your partner, and if you like, your church..

We should be taxed as individuals.. no marriage benefit, no kids benefit.. WHY should the government give me a tax break for having SIXTEEN kids?? It's all Political bull####..

I don't remeber where marriage is spelled out in our Bill of Rights, and in as much NONE of us has a RIGHT to get married. Show me wher Hetero's have a RIGHT to get married before suggesting Gays should also have that right.