Mitt Romney has a Koch Problem...

[Tilted (Premo)]

Originally Posted by aps45819

It's interesting how some people look to the government to solve the problems created by the government.

Indeed. It's straight out of the Communist Manifesto.

[aps45819]

So rich people who develop resources and create jobs are a problem but rich people who don't develop anything are OK?

[Tilted (Premo)]

Originally Posted by SamSpade

The bottom half pay nothing; the lowest quintile actually gets money BACK they didn't pay in.

Originally Posted by Gilligan

Exactly. A large part of the middle class pays little of nothing in taxes.

But that isn't true. They don't pay their fair share because they pay considerably less than people that make more money, but they do pay "part of the bill" - they do pay taxes. We don't need to exaggerate reality to the point of being misleading or inaccurate in order to fairly make the case that those who make a lot of money generally pay more than they should have to relative to those that don't make as much.

There are lots of taxes other than income taxes and then, of course, there are payroll income taxes. A large majority of people that earn income pay taxes on it, and most everyone pays some other taxes.

[Gilligan (Premo)]

Originally Posted by Tilted

But that isn't true. .

I was referring to fed income taxes. It certainly is true...I don't always keep my pen knife so frog-hair splitting sharp like you always do.

[kwillia]

Here... maybe pictures will help.

[SamSpade]

Originally Posted by Tilted

But that isn't true.

Cut me some slack - you know I was referring to federal income tax. At the national level, it's pretty much the only tax that the President and Congress have much influence over.

So if the President talks about a tax cut, he is not talking about sales tax, or state income tax, or payroll tax. And when he talks about "tax cuts for the rich" he is not talking about sales tax or state income tax or property tax and so forth.

[Asmodeus]

Originally Posted by Tilted

But that isn't true. They don't pay their fair share because they pay considerably less than people that make more money, but they do pay "part of the bill" - they do pay taxes. We don't need to exaggerate reality to the point of being misleading or inaccurate in order to fairly make the case that those who make a lot of money generally pay more than they should have to relative to those that don't make as much.

There are lots of taxes other than income taxes and then, of course, there are payroll income taxes. A large majority of people that earn income pay taxes on it, and most everyone pays some other taxes.

Actually, according to IRS figures there is somewhere around 10% of the bottom tax rate returns that receive more money back than both their withheld and their payroll taxes...

Most tax payers don't think about the part of the payroll tax paid by their employer (which was supposed to cover SS)... They only care that at the end of the year, how much Uncle Sam kept from their withholding and how much of it they got back...

Looking at the 2012 Tax Brackets, it is kinda hard to figure out where the middle class is... Is it purely the 15% bracket? Or is it everything except the 10% and 35% brackets?

Tax Bracket Married Filing Jointly Single
10% Bracket $0 – $17,400 $0 – $8,700
15% Bracket $17,400 – $70,700 $8,700 – $35,350
25% Bracket $70,700 – $142,700 $35,350 – $85,650
28% Bracket $142,700 – $217,450 $85,650 – $178,650
33% Bracket $217,450 – $388,350 $178,650 – $388,350
35% Bracket Over $388,350 Over $388,350

[Tilted (Premo)]

Originally Posted by Asmodeus

Actually, according to IRS figures there is somewhere around 10% of the bottom tax rate returns that receive more money back than both their withheld and their payroll taxes...

Most tax payers don't think about the part of the payroll tax paid by their employer (which was supposed to cover SS)... They only care that at the end of the year, how much Uncle Sam kept from their withholding and how much of it they got back... Indeed.

Looking at the 2012 Tax Brackets, it is kinda hard to figure out where the middle class is... Is it purely the 15% bracket? Or is it everything except the 10% and 35% brackets?

Tax Bracket Married Filing Jointly Single
10% Bracket $0 – $17,400 $0 – $8,700
15% Bracket $17,400 – $70,700 $8,700 – $35,350
25% Bracket $70,700 – $142,700 $35,350 – $85,650
28% Bracket $142,700 – $217,450 $85,650 – $178,650
33% Bracket $217,450 – $388,350 $178,650 – $388,350
35% Bracket Over $388,350 Over $388,350

Yes, and that's part of why I said 'a large majority of' rather than 'all'.

[Tilted (Premo)]

Originally Posted by Gilligan

I was referring to fed income taxes. It certainly is true...I don't always keep my pen knife so frog-hair splitting sharp like you always do.

Originally Posted by SamSpade

Cut me some slack - you know I was referring to federal income tax. At the national level, it's pretty much the only tax that the President and Congress have much influence over.

So if the President talks about a tax cut, he is not talking about sales tax, or state income tax, or payroll tax. (Not for nothing, but didn't they recently cut payroll taxes?) And when he talks about "tax cuts for the rich" he is not talking about sales tax or state income tax or property tax and so forth.

I'm not splitting hairs and I wasn't noting an error just because it existed. I wasn't making a technical correction, so to speak.

The point is that it matters. If we're talking about whether respective people pay taxes - whether they pay part of the bill - we should include payroll taxes. Why wouldn't we? Payroll taxes account for a large part of our revenue - not too much less than other individual income taxes do. Their being called payroll taxes doesn't much change that, and it represents money taken out of the checks of people that pay them just as much as other income taxes do.

It is misleading to suggest that the bottom half pays nothing. It's picking what to count or not count in order to create the impression, and advance the position, we want. We discredit our valid points when we selectively ignore certain realities like this. This isn't about busting chops over technical errors in wording, it's about trying to make the overall conversation a little more honest and a little more meaningful.

Oh, and Gilligan, just to show what splitting hairs might look like (in a good natured way, of course)... Payroll taxes are federal income taxes.

[Asmodeus]

Originally Posted by Tilted

... snip

Their being called payroll taxes doesn't much change that, and it represents money taken out of the checks of people that pay them just as much as other income taxes do.

It is misleading to suggest that the bottom half pays nothing. It's picking what to count or not count in order to create the impression, and advance the position, we want. We discredit our valid points when we selectively ignore certain realities like this. This isn't about busting chops over technical errors in wording, it's about trying to make the overall conversation a little more honest and a little more meaningful.

Oh, and Gilligan, just to show what splitting hairs might look like (in a good natured way, of course)... Payroll taxes are federal income taxes.

There are two 'payroll taxes' and they are different... One is withholding that is taken out of your check... the other is paid by the EMPLOYER... One is federal income tax, one is not. We know from the IRS that a portion receives back more than was withheld, and a smaller portion receives more than their withholding AND the employer portion.

The answer to the debate would be What percentage of the bottom 10% gets back 100% of what was withheld from their check? (effectively pays no federal income tax)...