Socialists Urge Support of Kerry

[sifl]

Originally posted by sleuth
To answer that... you have to know what socialism is.

"Socialism is the doctrine that man has no right to exist for his own sake, that his life and his work do not belong to him, but belong to society, that the only justification of his existence is his service to society, and that society may dispose of him in any way it pleases for the sake of whatever it deems to be its own tribal, collective good."
-- Ayn Rand

And this is why that's bad...

"The moral purpose of a man's life is the achievement of his own happiness. This does not mean that he is indifferent to all men, that human life is of no value to him and that he has no reason to help others in an emergency. But it does mean that he does not subordinate his life to the welfare of others, that he does not sacrifice himself to their needs, that the relief of their suffering is not his primary concern, that any help he gives is an exception, not a rule, an act of generosity, not of moral duty ..... " -- Ayn Rand

"When "the common good" of a society is regarded as something apart from and superior to the individual good of its members, it means that the good of some men takes precedence over the good of others, with those others consigned to the status of sacrificial animals."
~ Ayn Rand, "What is Capitalism?" Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal

Now you've done it - liberals hate Ayn Rand!

[sleuth]

Originally posted by sifl
Now you've done it - liberals hate Ayn Rand!

[Firefly]

Isn't England's government based on socialism? I know it's not a pure form and they have the monarchs, which are only figureheads. And I also realize that greed and need to be considered better than others is somehow ingrained in the human psyche. But isn't it something to strive for? The best capitalism can offer is for an individual to have all of the money, keeping the working class down.

[sleuth]

Originally posted by Firefly
Isn't England's government based on socialism? I know it's not a pure form and they have the monarchs, which are only figureheads. And I also realize that greed and need to be considered better than others is somehow ingrained in the human psyche. But isn't it something to strive for? The best capitalism can offer is for an individual to have all of the money, keeping the working class down.

The whole point is that an individual can't become rich by keeping the working class down. If he does so, there's no one to buy his goods, and there's no one to produce the goods he wants to buy.

[sleuth]

Originally posted by Firefly
But isn't it something to strive for?

IMO a better system to strive for is one in which each person is paid appropriately for his capacity to think and produce.

i.e. that each person has earned what wealth they acquire.

[Ken King (Premo)]

Originally posted by Firefly
Isn't England's government based on socialism? I know it's not a pure form and they have the monarchs, which are only figureheads. And I also realize that greed and need to be considered better than others is somehow ingrained in the human psyche. But isn't it something to strive for? The best capitalism can offer is for an individual to have all of the money, keeping the working class down.

I am pretty sure that they operate under a capitalistic system, though at times when the Labor Party is in the majority it seems socialistic.

[Firefly]

But if I produce more than efficiently, and you lack, won't it be prudent to make sure you are being taken care of so you don't suffer. Sometimes it's not that an individual doesn't want to produce, it's that the individual can't. Having a system that helps people fill in the gaps would be nice.

I have no problem making people work for what they need, but can't we be on similar footing. Is my job more important than yours or vice versa? We all work, but being a computer tech is worth more, then constructing a building. Aren't they both necessary jobs in our society? Why would one get paid more than the other? At least if we are in the same position and the same job, why can't we earn the same money, like in a union?

Is it human nature or is it environment for us not to automatically think of others as well as ourselves?

By the way I am a proud liberal!!! To me it's not a dirty word.

[Pete (Premo)]

Originally posted by Firefly
But if I produce more than efficiently, and you lack, won't it be prudent to make sure you are being taken care of so you don't suffer. Sometimes it's not that an individual doesn't want to produce, it's that the individual can't. Having a system that helps people fill in the gaps would be nice.

I have no problem making people work for what they need, but can't we be on similar footing. Is my job more important than yours or vice versa? We all work, but being a computer tech is worth more, then constructing a building. Aren't they both necessary jobs in our society? Why would one get paid more than the other? At least if we are in the same position and the same job, why can't we earn the same money, like in a union?

Is it human nature or is it environment for us not to automatically think of others as well as ourselves?

By the way I am a proud liberal!!! To me it's not a dirty word.

[FromTexas (Premo)]

Originally posted by Firefly
But if I produce more than efficiently, and you lack, won't it be prudent to make sure you are being taken care of so you don't suffer. Sometimes it's not that an individual doesn't want to produce, it's that the individual can't. Having a system that helps people fill in the gaps would be nice.

I have no problem making people work for what they need, but can't we be on similar footing. Is my job more important than yours or vice versa? We all work, but being a computer tech is worth more, then constructing a building. Aren't they both necessary jobs in our society? Why would one get paid more than the other? At least if we are in the same position and the same job, why can't we earn the same money, like in a union?

Is it human nature or is it environment for us not to automatically think of others as well as ourselves?

By the way I am a proud liberal!!! To me it's not a dirty word.

You realize that totally defeats the idea of competition right? I am just checking. I am sure you will point out how competition is a bad thing next. In that case, I point you to any socialist country where you can be equal (unless you are the ruling, stealing, class that tells everyone else how equal they are now that the ruling, stealing class takes everything extra from everyone so they all are miserable together).



Do you realize everything you just typed is anti-capitalism? You do know you live in a capitalist founded and a capitalist existing country?

[sleuth]

Originally posted by Firefly
But if I produce more than efficiently, and you lack, won't it be prudent to make sure you are being taken care of so you don't suffer. Sometimes it's not that an individual doesn't want to produce, it's that the individual can't. Having a system that helps people fill in the gaps would be nice.

If I take care of you, what's your incentive to improve? Why should you even try to take care of yourself if someone else will do it for you?

I don't mind helping out those who "can't" take care of themselves, e.g. those who have severe mental and physical disabilities that prevent them from obtaining good jobs or improving on the jobs they already have. I also don't have a problem helping out those people who are struck by overwhelming disasters such as fires or whatever. But I do have a problem taking care of those who are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves, but for some reason or another, choose not to.

IMO, if you don't like your job or any of the jobs you're qualified for, or if you feel you don't get paid enough, you need to buy yourself some training. They give student loans to just about ANYONE, and they give you plenty of opportunity to pay it back when you're done without economic hardship. But don't come to me asking me to pay for your food, your kid's food, your mama's underwear, whatever, when you're perfectly capable of paying for it yourself.