secure our borders

[2ndAmendment (Premo)]

Excerpt from Grassfire.org email. Time to secure our borders is NOW.

President Bush said yesterday (Monday) that he understands the burden illegal immigration puts on border states, and vows to work with local and state government to enforce the border laws.

Even though Arizona, New Mexico, California and Texas are bearing the worst of the illegal immigration crisis, lawmakers from many non-border states are also beginning to see the strain illegal immigration is having on their states as well.

"People ignored our pleas for years," said Sen. John Kyl (R-AZ) referring to fellow members of Congress. "Everybody now recognizes that we need to deal with it."

+ + Emergency Petition Delivery Announced

In light of the President's pledge, and John Kyl's statement, Grassfire wants to mobilize and present at least 200,000 "Secure our Border" petitions to both the White House and Sen. Kyl during the first week of September.

As of today, Grassfire is about 10,000 petitions shy of our presentation goal, and we are asking ALL who stand for secured borders to take immediate action with us to rally the critically needed extra support we need to make a significant impact with this presentation.

Demand our borders are secured by clicking here:

http://www.grassfire.org/42/petition.asp?PID=7613515

We are so close to reaching our goal!

What a bunch of short-sighted maroons! I'll bet they've never even considered the ramifications of doing what they are suggesting.

[2ndAmendment (Premo)]

Originally Posted by Bruzilla

What a bunch of short-sighted maroons! I'll bet they've never even considered the ramifications of doing what they are suggesting.

Open your eyes. It is what borders are for, keeping people out unless they come in properly.

Ok, so let's say these pinheads get their wish, and all of the illegals in the country are deported en masse, and no new illegals are able to get in. What happens then?

First, the prices of produce, most of which is picked by illegals, goes through the roof... or at least a 300% increase because now the farmers have to pay more in wages plus payroll taxes. Also, since all of the pickers are legal, they can better unionize and demand more money and benefits, with all of these windfalls paid by anyone who eats an apple or a salad. Thanks guys!

Next, since most immigrant laborers do menial jobs because they have no choice, these jobs now have to be performed by people who do have a choice. So 2A, are you ready to quit your job and become an asphault shoveler, or cabbage picker, or maid in the name of ensuring our "national security?" I guess not... someone else will do it right? Yeah... that's what everybody says. So to get all of these dirty, smelly, back-breaking, tedious jobs done we're just going to have to pay more to get legal workers to do them, with the cost passed back to us. Thanks again guys!

Now we get to all of the increased revenues that all of these legal workers will inject into the till, along with paying for all their education and healthcare costs. Ooops... even with increased salaries these are still unskilled folks being brought in legally to do the work since you and others in the skilled category don't want to put aside your current jobs for a pair of cabbage sheers, so they don't make enough money to pay any taxes, but they do qualify for tax credits so they'll be paying no money into the till and taking extra money out, thereby requiring reductions in services or tax hikes to cover the costs. Plus most of them will qualify for medicaid/medicare or some other subsidized healthcare, so nothing will really change there except for the fact that the hospitals will get paid by the government at a best-dollar rate instead of losing money at their cost, and of course... we pick up the bill. Thanks again guys!

Now that we're all paying way more for produce, many goods and services, and more taxes, the terrorists can still get into the US by paying $100 for a phony passport and flying in on any airline. Talk about getting a return on your money! Thanks again guys!

[2ndAmendment (Premo)]

Bru, Read my post in the Pat B thread.

[Steve]

Bruzilla,

There is no justifying the support for illegal immigration into this country, period. We have a process for legal immigration already; it needs to be followed. You also assume that all field hands and greenskeepers and road builders are illegal. They are not. Many are legal immigrants who still find earning a minimum wage here better than being destitute in their own countries, where there is no employment.

If our federal, state and local officials choose to ignore our immigration laws out of convenience or economy, then what other laws should we ignore?

[2ndAmendment (Premo)]

Originally Posted by Steve

If our federal, state and local officials choose to ignore our immigration laws out of convenience or economy, then what other laws should we ignore?

[kidding]Anarchy, anarchy! Then the "currency" will be ammunition.[/kidding] Well, maybe ![kidding]

Originally Posted by Steve

Bruzilla,

There is no justifying the support for illegal immigration into this country, period. We have a process for legal immigration already; it needs to be followed. You also assume that all field hands and greenskeepers and road builders are illegal. They are not. Many are legal immigrants who still find earning a minimum wage here better than being destitute in their own countries, where there is no employment.

If our federal, state and local officials choose to ignore our immigration laws out of convenience or economy, then what other laws should we ignore?

Steve, you're right... not every field hand, road worker, or greenskeeper is an illegal... but many of them are. In fact, many, MANY, of them are. In fact so many of them are that doing away with them would have exactly the consequences I mentioned, and requiring legal workers would also have exactly the consequences I mentioned.

I have no problem with anyone saying the laws should be enforced, what bothers me is that they act as if forcing all imigrants to be legal, and getting rid of illegals, is going to make the US a better place, when that's just not the case. A lot of people like to look at illegal immigrants as some kind of cancer eating away at the insides of our country, when in fact they are an indespensible part of our economy. I think of a patient going to a doctor and saying "Bacteria are bad and cause sickness, so I want you to get rid of all the bacteria in my body right now!" Then the doctor does as the patients says and tells him "Ok, all the bacteria are now out of your body, including the kind that your body needs to stay healthy and alive, so you've got about 20 seconds to live." Then he turns to the nurse and says "call the morgue and tell them there's another genious on the way down."

All of these people screaming about doing away with illegals are in a mad rush to chop off their noses to spite their own wallets to butcher a phrase. If they succeed in their goals they can all go and celebrate by eating a $5 apple or paying $9 for a salad at McDonalds before buying a $30 t-shirt at WalMart. Whoopee... we won! Yeah... quite a victory.

What other laws should we ignore? How about what other laws do we already ignore? Speed limits, firearms transfers, car seats for kids, seatbelts for adults, working hours for employees, land development and house improvement, assault and battery... I can go on and on, but what's the point. Most Americans choose to ignore one law or another everyday.

If you want to be the gung-ho law and order type on this issue you must first ensure that you're also a gung-ho law and order type in regards to every law (and even though we've never met I can tell you that you aren't), and you need to weigh what the benefits to such a stand would be as compared to the costs, and in this case the costs far outweight the benefits.

[fishinfool]

Originally Posted by Bruzilla

Ok, so let's say these pinheads get their wish, and all of the illegals in the country are deported en masse, and no new illegals are able to get in. What happens then?

First, the prices of produce, most of which is picked by illegals, goes through the roof... or at least a 300% increase because now the farmers have to pay more in wages plus payroll taxes. Also, since all of the pickers are legal, they can better unionize and demand more money and benefits, with all of these windfalls paid by anyone who eats an apple or a salad. Thanks guys!

Next, since most immigrant laborers do menial jobs because they have no choice, these jobs now have to be performed by people who do have a choice. So 2A, are you ready to quit your job and become an asphault shoveler, or cabbage picker, or maid in the name of ensuring our "national security?" I guess not... someone else will do it right? Yeah... that's what everybody says. So to get all of these dirty, smelly, back-breaking, tedious jobs done we're just going to have to pay more to get legal workers to do them, with the cost passed back to us. Thanks again guys!

Now we get to all of the increased revenues that all of these legal workers will inject into the till, along with paying for all their education and healthcare costs. Ooops... even with increased salaries these are still unskilled folks being brought in legally to do the work since you and others in the skilled category don't want to put aside your current jobs for a pair of cabbage sheers, so they don't make enough money to pay any taxes, but they do qualify for tax credits so they'll be paying no money into the till and taking extra money out, thereby requiring reductions in services or tax hikes to cover the costs. Plus most of them will qualify for medicaid/medicare or some other subsidized healthcare, so nothing will really change there except for the fact that the hospitals will get paid by the government at a best-dollar rate instead of losing money at their cost, and of course... we pick up the bill. Thanks again guys!

Now that we're all paying way more for produce, many goods and services, and more taxes, the terrorists can still get into the US by paying $100 for a phony passport and flying in on any airline. Talk about getting a return on your money! Thanks again guys!

These are many of the same arguments plantation owners used before slavery was abolished.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by Bruzilla

What other laws should we ignore? How about what other laws do we already ignore? Speed limits, firearms transfers, car seats for kids, seatbelts for adults, working hours for employees, land development and house improvement, assault and battery... I can go on and on, but what's the point. Most Americans choose to ignore one law or another everyday.

If you want to be the gung-ho law and order type on this issue you must first ensure that you're also a gung-ho law and order type in regards to every law (and even though we've never met I can tell you that you aren't), and you need to weigh what the benefits to such a stand would be as compared to the costs, and in this case the costs far outweight the benefits.

Then should we abolish the border with Mexico and Central America entirely? If they are already here (12 million according to recent news) and they are indispensible to our economy, then wouldn't allowing more in actually further reduce the price of some goods by providing more cheap labor? Sounds like reborn slavery or indentured servitude to me. The class division would widen even further then.

Concerning the costs of goods produced, subsidized as you say by illegal immigrants, if their price should increase in the absence of cheap labor, then I expect the farmers and other producers would fix their prices at that which the market will bear. If no one buys $9 salads at McDonald's, you will see the price decline to be sure.

The other laws you mentioned are red herrings and not germaine to our discussion of illegal immigrants. That's why I didn't include any myself; I couldn't think of laws that are broken in a similar fashion as those of immigration. Yes, I have broken the speed limit in the past, and been ticketed for doing so. I have never transferred a firearm, but the 2nd Amendment gives me the freedom to do so as I see fit; the rest of the laws concerning firearm trade are unconstitutional. I've always used seat belts and always used car seats, within the law. The others are punishable and are done so quite frequently, especially assault and battery. The problem apparently with illegal immigrants is that they are not being deported as the law dictates, but are being rereleased into the population after a bit of scolding.

The problem is also regional. There are more illegal immigrants in the southwest than anywhere else. They are using up government resources at a frightening pace, competing with the legal immigrants and bonafide citizens. This is certainly not fair to the law abiding, tax paying citizenry. I would be very upset if I needed some level of publicly funded service but was denied due to lack of resources that had been consumed at even 10% by illegal immigrants.