Interesting Take on Blacks

[itsbob (Premo)]

Originally Posted by Nupe2

That's correct. However, that doesn't change the fact that slavery, no matter it's practitioners is morally reprehensible and not defendable on an economic or societal level.

I wasn't defending, I never said it was right or good.. I just compared it to today's environment that we ALL live under

[mAlice (Premo)]

Originally Posted by Nupe2

That's correct. However, that doesn't change the fact that slavery, no matter it's practitioners is morally reprehensible and not defendable on an economic or societal level.

I agree with both of you. I have no doubt that horrific things happened to many slaves, but I also believe in people. Unless you have facts to back it up, there is no way I can believe that the human heart was worse then than it is now. There must have been slave owners that took care of their charges. We're talking about god fearing people who know the bible says to take care of your slaves. And also those who were just down right kind to people in general.

[Nupe2]

Originally Posted by itsbob

Hard for you to believe that MAYBE there were slave owners out there that treated their workers not ony well, but maybe VERY well.. that out of the hundreds of thousands of white plantation owners that maybe ten percent or twenty percent or maybe even 50% treated their workers like humans and did in fact take care of them from the cradle to the grave??

I'm sure there were owners that treated slaves as represented on TV, but I also believe there were many that didn't.

Slavery wasn't right then, it isn't right now, I'm just saying some of them did what they thought was right at the time. Treated their slaves as human beings, fed sheltered and took care of them throughout their lives.

JUST as not ALL Germans wanted to kill all the Jews.. There were several in power that did, but there were also hundreds that risked their lives to hide and protect the Jews from certain death. There's almost ALWAYS good to be found even in the worst stories.

Slavery was wrong. No other way to say it. It's especially wrong in a country where the drafters of the CONstitution included language that made it clear that they knew that freedom outweighed all other human needs. I believe they, and especially Jefferson, missed an opportunity to make this country great from the start. Truly courageous and "God-fearing" men would have taken the honorable course and abolished slavery within the terms of the Constitution.

(gotta run...a 2 hour commute awaits) "Talk" to you folks later.

[bcp (Premo)]

Originally Posted by Nupe2

Slavery was wrong. No other way to say it. It's especially wrong in a country where the drafters of the CONstitution included language that made it clear that they knew that freedom outweighed all other human needs. I believe they, and especially Jefferson, missed an opportunity to make this country great from the start. Truly courageous and "God-fearing" men would have taken the honorable course and abolished slavery within the terms of the Constitution.

(gotta run...a 2 hour commute awaits) "Talk" to you folks later.

everything you say is correct, but you fail to understand one thing.

When the constitution was signed blacks were not considered equal to humans and therefore the constitution did not apply to them.
Not until people began to realize that these people were human just like everyone else did the tide begin to turn in a positive way regarding the slave industry.

[vraiblonde]

Originally Posted by itsbob

I think if you were to offer someone a similar life, with the same gurantees, you might get a lot of takers.

That's horse####. The only people who would take you up on it might be welfare good-for-nothings, and they've already found a sweet deal - they don't even have to work.

Slaves were completely subjugated - beaten when Massa had a bad day, raped when Massa got a woody, sold away from their families when Massa got a good price.

To say anyone would be willing to live like that is just ridiculous and insulting. I'm surprised at you, Bob.

[vraiblonde]

Originally Posted by elaine

I have no doubt that horrific things happened to many slaves, but I also believe in people.

I do not believe in people because I've seen too many perfectly reasonable, kind people go crazy when they had a little power and authority under their belts. Some people certainly treated their slaves decently, but I'll bet they were few and far between.

Rather than GWTW, I think North and South was a more accurate fictional portrayal. So was Roots.

[Hessian]

One element often left out of the discussion was the bottom line cost of slaves.
The average farmer/ tradesman in the 1850's was making perhaps 600-700.00 per year. However, a slave on the auction block varied in price from 150.00(child/..ill) to 1600.00 (artisan).

Naturally I have read how owners would try to up the price based upon superficial covering of scars or attempts to add vigor to their appearance.
This practice is not what is the heart of the matter though.
If the average worker were making 600.00/year,...and a healthy male slave was 900-1200,----

that would put a slave at 50-70,000 in today's values.
Certainly owners of major plantations could "afford" to abuse their slaves because they had many and their harshness was an attempt to inspire fear and get labor from them. BUT

Major plantations were in the minority: The large majority of slaves generally lived in "Middlin sort" farms: with perhaps 2-5 families. These farms often struggled as the land lost value, tobacco fell, and Americans began moving to urban centers. Would owners have taken the liberties to destroy the morale of his field hands & house servants by needlessly inflicting crippling wounds and giving them every reason to run?
This is where the "driver" had to maintain a balance of rewards and threats to get the best labor from them. And yes, there were Black drivers.

Sorry if this appears rather callous but it is a subject that is often not considered when weighing the lives of slaves.

[Nupe2]

Originally Posted by bcp

everything you say is correct, but you fail to understand one thing.

When the constitution was signed blacks were not considered equal to humans and therefore the constitution did not apply to them.
Not until people began to realize that these people were human just like everyone else did the tide begin to turn in a positive way regarding the slave industry.

You're right about the Constitution. However, your statement supports my contention that Jefferson and company "screwed the pooch" in a big way. Your statement further begs the question - how long does it take the average person to recognize the difference between a human being and an animal? Following that logic, a reasonable person would have to conclude that folks during that time were incredibly stupid. A human being is a human being. In a "free" society as described in the Constitution, all SHOULD have been endowed with the same inalienable rights.

Let me note here that I understand that that was then and that times and people have changed. However, if you accept the tenant that this country was founded on the ideals of freedom of thought, being and religion, the idea that that same country would support and defend slavery is blatantly hypocritical.

Also, the tide turning against the slave trade was blood red and shed throughout this country. That bloodshed and the courage of leaders such as Lincoln and others is what ultimately ended slavery in this country.

[Tonio]

Of course there were some slaveowners who did not physically maltreat their slaves. I think that's largerly irrelevant, because slavery was a form of emotional maltreatment. The lives of slaves were not their own.

Originally Posted by vraiblonde

Rather than GWTW, I think North and South was a more accurate fictional portrayal. So was Roots.

I saw only an hour of GWTW, turning it off because I couldn't stand Vivian Leigh's whining. But from what I saw, the movie had a misguided romanticism about the antebellum South. It wasn't just that slavery was shown as largely benign; it was the idea that the era was an idyllic paradise. That was a revisionism myth that persisted well into the 20th century among both Northerners and Southerners.

(And what was up with the genteel Southern ladies taking naps every afternoon? Too many mint juleps with lunch?)

Originally Posted by elaine

The fact is that Africans were enslaving each other before the european white man arrived, and they were also selling each other to the white european. People have been enslaving each other since the beginning of time.

I just get tired of it always looking like whitey is the only bad guy in the picture.

Valid point. I see that as overcompensating for GWTW-type mythmaking. Whites shouldn't flog themselves with guilt over their ancestors' role in slavery, but they shouldn't live in denial either.

[Nupe2]

...yeah and what's up with Leslie Howard/Ashley Wilkes? Now that I think about it, the name Ashley fits that "stud."