the moral chicken and egg

[This_person]

Originally Posted by tommyjones

i dont see religion ANYWHERE in that definition...... so no, you are not making it clearer, you are muddying the waters.

morals do not come from religion, in fact, your definition suggests that laws and religion come from morals

Actually, now you're starting to get my whole jist.

Society's rules (laws) come from morals. Morals come from the foundation that they're based upon. Thus, the atheist is acting in a "moral" way only because of laws and customs, not the foundation. Not the "morals".

The word "religion" is not in there, but the concept is. The definition speaks to foundations - NOT CUSTOMS or LAWS. It speaks of the distinction between "right and wrong". The foundations of right and wrong, of ethical principals, come from religions.

Again, I will bring up the recent case of the raped girl being punished by her society because she put herself in the position of being raped. Our society, based upon primarily Christian morals and the laws that come from them, finds that concept reprehensible. That society, based upon its set of morals - its set of right and wrongs from its laws from its primary religion - believes that to be the correct way to act. The morals come from the religion, the laws come from the morals. Atheists get their concept of right and wrong from the religions they were raised around.

I hope I'm clearing it up now!

[Xaquin44]

you still cited 2 definitions.

edit: and you can/do still have morals without religion.

[This_person]

Originally Posted by Xaquin44

you still cited 2 definitions.

edit: and you can/do still have morals without religion.

No, all one definition from dictionary.com

edit: not by the definition. Standards? Yes. Morals? No.

[Xaquin44]

Originally Posted by This_person

No, all one definition from dictionary.com

you forgot some =)

6. virtuous in sexual matters; chaste.
7. of, pertaining to, or acting on the mind, feelings, will, or character: moral support.
8. resting upon convincing grounds of probability; virtual: a moral certainty.
–noun 9. the moral teaching or practical lesson contained in a fable, tale, experience, etc.
10. the embodiment or type of something.
11. morals, principles or habits with respect to right or wrong conduct.


whee =)

also from dictionary.com

[This_person]

Originally Posted by Xaquin44

you forgot some =)

6. virtuous in sexual matters; chaste.
7. of, pertaining to, or acting on the mind, feelings, will, or character: moral support.
8. resting upon convincing grounds of probability; virtual: a moral certainty.
–noun 9. the moral teaching or practical lesson contained in a fable, tale, experience, etc.
10. the embodiment or type of something.
11. morals, principles or habits with respect to right or wrong conduct.


whee =)

also from dictionary.com

Right. They didn't pertain to the discussion. Note, the highlighted on in #9 is talking about the moral of a story, not morals. The other highlighted on (11) still speaks of right and wrong. Those concepts, of course, being founded in something.

Not sure where you're going with this.....

[Xaquin44]

Originally Posted by This_person

Right. They didn't pertain to the discussion. Note, the highlighted on in #9 is talking about the moral of a story, not morals. The other highlighted on (11) still speaks of right and wrong. Those concepts, of course, being founded in something.

Not sure where you're going with this.....

Habits with respect to right or wrong conduct (i.e. laws)

the moral teaching or practical lesson contained in experience (i.e. don't be a jerk or people will be a jerk back to you)

both account for no need for religion to acheive the goal.

[This_person]

Originally Posted by Xaquin44

Habits with respect to right or wrong conduct (i.e. laws)

No, as Tommy pointed out above, the laws are written based upon the concepts of right and wrong conduct, which are based upon morals. Morals are not based upon laws. See #3 under adjectives

the moral teaching or practical lesson contained in experience (i.e. don't be a jerk or people will be a jerk back to you)

The moral of a story is a way of getting the concept of a moral out to be understood. And, what is a moral - something based upon a foundation that does NOT include customs nor laws.

both account for no need for religion to acheive the goal.

The goal of getting the story out, no. The foundation of the substance of the moral - where else is it coming form if not a religion (with the clear understanding it's not from customs or laws)?

[Xaquin44]

Originally Posted by This_person

The moral of a story is a way of getting the concept of a moral out to be understood. And, what is a moral - something based upon a foundation that does NOT include customs nor laws.

I wasn't talking about a story I was talking about experience. Like it says in one of the definitions.

[This_person]

Originally Posted by Xaquin44

I wasn't talking about a story I was talking about experience. Like it says in one of the definitions.

the moral teaching or practical lesson contained in a fable, tale, experience, etc.

You're saying the practical lesson contained in experience is the the moral teaching.

We're saying the same thing.

[Xaquin44]

Originally Posted by This_person

the moral teaching or practical lesson contained in a fable, tale, experience, etc.

You're saying the practical lesson contained in experience is the the moral teaching.

We're saying the same thing.

so why does religion have to fit in?