Osteen as heretic?

[toppick08 (Premo)]

Originally Posted by JPC sr

You have the Hell being just a fear tactic right because Jesus and God said particularly to love thy enemies, link HERE.

Jesus paid the penalty of sin for everybody so everyone gets saved and not even one gets lost.

The cross was not for the righteous nor the self righteous but for us sinners and the cross paid in full not partial payment.

I came out of Catholicism myself and I use to be angry at the Church but now I see the fear as a weakness and so I respect them again because "loving thy enemies" is a hard concept for the mortal men (male and female) to see instead of their fear driven Hell.

God does not torture and torment His enemies in the mystical Hell because Jesus paid the price in full for everyone to be saved.

It is not a choice nor an option, the salvation of all is the free gift from our Father God to His many children.

I'm no Biblical scholar, but somewhere in the Gospel, Jesus tells many, Turn from me, for I never even knew you.....You must accept him or not. God in blessed Trinity.....Help me out 2a or ItallianScallion......no second chance at death.........

[ItalianScallion (Premo)]

Originally Posted by 2ndAmendment

Yeah, the happy message is good, but it is a bit like JPC's "everyone gets saved" junk.
Everyone is NOT going to be rich in this life NOR going to be freed from some health issue.
The "name it and claim it" principle is not Biblical, it does not work and not everyone is going to heaven.
If you send Joel a bunch of money, you probably won't get rich; you aunt may not be healed, and you spouse may still cheat on you.
"You will get rich and have everything your heart desires if you send your tithe to this ministry" is NOT one of God's messages.
Positive thinking is good and positive messages are good sometimes as long as they do not hold out false teachings.

Well said 2A but, sadly, I think some here really miss this in Joel's message. I enjoyed Joel's uplifting messages but I knew the Bible taught otherwise. If you folks want "feel good" theology then listen to Joel but, as 2A said, this "name it & claim it" stuff is NOT Biblical. God NEVER promises anyone health, happiness & prosperity here on earth. It's waiting in Heaven for those who follow Jesus until the end.
The problem that MOST of you don't see is that, when people go for the "prosperity" message and it doesn't happen, they fall away from God and this is a fatal flaw in some of Joel's teachings! He teaches that everyone can be healed and everyone can have prosperity & riches if they follow God and think positive. It doesn't always happen. Sometimes it does, but not often. God knows how money, fame & riches can take our focus away from Him so He doesn't give it to many of His followers. Paul was one of God's greatest and God wouldn't remove the thorn from him! John the Baptist was called the greatest one born of woman (Matt 11 v 11) and he traveled the desert in camel hair clothing & ate bugs! Some prosperity eh?
BE CAREFUL with these TV preachers: Copeland, Dollar, Hagee, Hinn, Tilton, Meyers, Price, etc.,(I could name a bunch more), all teach doctrines of prosperity more than they do about "taking up our cross to follow Jesus". They're more interested in money & followers than in the truth of God and they'll use (abuse) His name to get it.
Larry, if you come to follow God because of Joel's preaching then I say GREAT, but if you later fall away or leave because the "good life" didn't happen, then you'll see what we mean. If all of you like the "feel good" gospel but can't handle the "hell, fire & brimstone" gospel, you WILL be disappointed in the future, guaranteed. A message that is ALL good or ALL bad (half the truth) is not God's message. It's man's. There is a Heaven & a Hell, there are rich Christians & poor ones. There are very healthy, very sick & very handicapped ones too. Only a select few are guaranteed the great life that Joel speaks of. And God has to enable you to enjoy the riches or you'll end up like the MANY rich fools in Hollywood! (Ecclesiastes 5 v 19). They gained the world but many lost their souls. So, if you're looking to follow God for the material riches and the good life, you'll be sadly disappointed. Go for the spiritual riches and you'll be overjoyed at them.

[ItalianScallion (Premo)]

Originally Posted by toppick08

I'm no Biblical scholar, but somewhere in the Gospel, Jesus tells many, Turn from me, for I never even knew you.....You must accept him or not. God in blessed Trinity.....Help me out 2a or ItallianScallion......no second chance at death.........

(Matthew 7 v 21-23) and JPC is like Jimmy Carter: Whatever he says, I believe the opposite. Sorry, JPC, but your teachings are not from above. Many people's "blood" will be on your head if they follow what you say about eternal life. There is a Heaven & Hell and both are eternal. Sorry if it doesn't fit into your politically correct religious view but the Bible is clear on this. Yes Toppick, once we die, there is no changing our eternal home.

[2ndAmendment (Premo)]

Originally Posted by craberta

I am just not feeling it 2A, I think it'e your delivery...It's like your yelling at me, and I want to feel like you are angry. But I am tired and should probably go to sleep.

Not angry and not yelling. The bold was just to show you the scripture that directly addresses your statements.

I do not want to impose me on anything about which I proclaim. That is why I post scripture. If there is disagreement over the scripture, then the disagreement is not with me but with the Bible.

[2ndAmendment (Premo)]

Originally Posted by Larry Gude

...because I think that is what his theological critics were getting at, though I missed some parts of the segment that may have clarified this argument.

In any event, whenever I have listened to Osteen, it never occurred to me that he was Tony Robbins but that he was very much speaking about the power of the Lord and the glory of God, the power of prayer and the power and strength one can gain, simply for the asking if you give yourself to the Lord.

So, two questions, aren't all pastors and preachers primarily motivational speakers or, at least, claiming to be so? And isn't motivating folks to live better, to be better, for themselves and their loved ones, in the name of God, isn't that the work of the Lord?

If so, then is it not a simple question of whether or not the pastor is basing his motivation on religious faith and scripture or not, and, if so, I don't see how anyone could claim Osteen is NOT all about God.

Like I said, I don't listen to him. My statement was a generalization. Men of God can be motivational speakers. The converse is not necessarily true.

[2ndAmendment (Premo)]

Originally Posted by Larry Gude

...that is non sense. God created Adolph Hitler. God created Pol Pot. God created Joe Stalin. Whether they did the work of the Lord or not doesn't seem to bear any sort of discussion. God has made all sorts of clunkers who chose various levels of evil. That qualifies as junk and for theologians to take exception to Olsteen because is he, in their view, focus's too much on the individual is interesting to me. It seems to me that the individual that was Hitler, that was Stalin, that was Pol Pot could very much have used some ministry that focused on them being better people in and of themselves first and foremost.

Again, you said you don't watch the guy, so, I understand you not having a direct opinion but, again, it interests me that actual theologians, not atheists, not agnostics, but people who are versed and studied in the faith, claim he is not doing the work of the Lord.

It is my impression that had he been Adolph's pastor, history may have been rather different. For the better of mankind.

That has to, by definition, be the work of God. Doesn't it?

The Bible clearly states that God creates all to do His will for His purpose. You may not like it, but it is what it is.

Romans 9:14-24

14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!

15For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."

16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."

18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"

20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

So, yes, God created Hitler and Pol Pot and put them into power in order to carry out His plan.

[2ndAmendment (Premo)]

Originally Posted by JPC sr

You have the Hell being just a fear tactic right because Jesus and God said particularly to love thy enemies, link HERE.

Jesus paid the penalty of sin for everybody so everyone gets saved and not even one gets lost.

The cross was not for the righteous nor the self righteous but for us sinners and the cross paid in full not partial payment.

I came out of Catholicism myself and I use to be angry at the Church but now I see the fear as a weakness and so I respect them again because "loving thy enemies" is a hard concept for the mortal men (male and female) to see instead of their fear driven Hell.

God does not torture and torment His enemies in the mystical Hell because Jesus paid the price in full for everyone to be saved.

It is not a choice nor an option, the salvation of all is the free gift from our Father God to His many children.

This is the reason that recently the posts have been about the rath of God since JPC insists on posting these lies that are contrary to what the Bible says very clearly.

Jesus said very clearly that not everyone is saved or will be saved. He even said the the road and gate are wide that lead to destruction and many shall enter.

Matthew 7:13-14

13"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

14"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Quite frankly, I love the message of the loving and forgiving Father. The God that has provided for us.

John 3:13-21

13"No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

14"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;

15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

16"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

17"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

18"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19"This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

20"For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

21"But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

But if any one is led to believe the junk that JPC is posting because it is not refuted, then that loss is on those that know better and do not reveal JPC's lies for what they are.

[vraiblonde]

Originally Posted by 2ndAmendment

So, yes, God created Hitler and Pol Pot and put them into power in order to carry out His plan.

Great plan. That's some God you got there, 2A.

[tomchamp]

Originally Posted by vraiblonde

Great plan. That's some God you got there, 2A.

Who's yours?

[vraiblonde]

It's no secret that I like Joel Osteen and enjoy his sermons, not to mention his books. He's actually quite popular with atheists and agnostics. So, not to put too fine a point on it, but he seems to be better at bringing the word of God to unbelievers than his more rigid counterparts.

So maybe that's what's ticking them off.