Christians should keep Scripture out of politics

[Xaquin44]

wildsage, you are a fine fellow (or woman as I don't personally know you)!

[This_person]

Originally Posted by wildsage

(I know you are but what am I!) As I suggested, provide something that is as close to proof as the examples given, something other than a tale handed down by simple people who developed superstitions to explain the unknown workings of their world. The Christian belief of the first man is similar to that of many other religions -- like the Incans, for example.

Okay, so I'll try again, in smaller words. I have no proof. Neither does science. See, that means we both have the same amount of proof. 0 = 0. None is the same as none. Am I getting through?

Genetic (oh, look they stole a biblic- wait, nevermind) variation does not work that way; read about evolution before dismissing it. For a fungus to give birth to a fish, or a bacteria to a bird, would be a miracle -- which is the realm of magic and not science.

Okay, let's take this back. Where did man come from. Uh huh, and before that? Uh huh, and before that, ad infinitum? Uh huh. So, where did my rose bush come from? Uh huh, and before that? Uh huh, and before that, ad infinitum? Okay, see.... Unless this one in a bazillion-gazillion chance of life forming from non-life happened several times (but, only here on earth!), everything came from the same original life cell. That had all of the genetic information in it for everything that exists today, with all it's variety. Oh, and the 99% of life that's existed on this planet that is already dead and gone.

Read up on what you're saying is right before you argue about it.

[This_person]

Originally Posted by wildsage

Okay, if you doubt gravity, as well, try this:
Drive a motorcycle, naked, at 120 mph directly into a brick wall (E=mc²) while praying to your god of choice to save you from death (faith).
[the discussion had to do with intangibility of natural laws like energy and their relation to physical properties like mass]

It looked a lot like you were referring to gravity as E=mc² when you said:

Originally Posted by wildsage

Jump out of an airplane at 10,000 feet without a parachute (E=mc2)

I don't doubt gravity, or E=mc², I just don't think you know they're not the same thing.

[wildsage]

... just don't foist it on the rest of us. (By that I refer to your willful display of ignorance regarding science, not the fact that you choose a specific religion, or ANY religion.)

Originally Posted by This_person

Okay, so I'll try again, in smaller words. I have no proof. Neither does science. See, that means we both have the same amount of proof. 0 = 0. None is the same as none.

Science has proofs of many things. The scientific claims that stand the tests designed to break down and disprove those ideas, tests by people educated in that field, are accepted as theory. The judgment of naysayers who have nothing but "it couldn't happen that way" mean nothing. We're dealing with facts, not wishes.
You want to play on a level field, just give us SOMETHING that approaches what science provides as evidence.
What do you have? A similarity with numerous other religions which also had devout adherents who exhibited faith in the stories that they were told. None of those other religions can or could prove anything, either, yet yours is the "one" that explains everything? Your whole argument boils down to "I believe that God did it, so that must be the truth."
By trying to continue this battle you do your chosen religion an injustice, cheapen your beliefs, and discount your faith. Faith: belief in something with no proof or evidence.
Fine make that choice but keep it in the category where it belongs: religion. Do not try to teach faith as science.

Your rose bush? It probably came from, or is a descendant of a plant from, a garden nursery. It could be a species of wild rose -- not having visited your garden I can't discount that possibility. Maybe it isn't even a real rose. Was it placed there by a god? I consider that highly unlikely, given what I know about the way things work in the natural world.
(That is a free lesson in making logical assumptions using current knowledge, even with missing data.)

Originally Posted by This_person

Read up on what you're saying is right before you argue about it.

Funny you would write that; your responses sound like they come from someone without much education. I have studied biology, chemistry, anthropology, sociology, psychology, geology, geography, paleontology, and a few other things -- and oh yeah, theology.

[wildsage]

[quote=I don't doubt gravity, or E=mc², I just don't think you know they're not the same thing.[/quote]
Was that a slam? Ouch, mommy, that hurts.
So did a god make one and Einstein make the other? Or was it Newton that invented gravity? Or, wait, was it --- SATAN!?

[This_person]

Originally Posted by wildsage

... just don't foist it on the rest of us. (By that I refer to your willful display of ignorance regarding science, not the fact that you choose a specific religion, or ANY religion.)

I don't choose ignorance. I choose learning and trying to know. Just don't call an apple an orange.

Science has proofs of many things. The scientific claims that stand the tests designed to break down and disprove those ideas, tests by people educated in that field, are accepted as theory. The judgment of naysayers who have nothing but "it couldn't happen that way" mean nothing. We're dealing with facts, not wishes.

Exactly - the tests. Show me the tests that demonstrate how a single cell can result in all of the species discussed, and I'll buy evolution as a science, not a myth on the same level as religion. Show me the test that demonstrates how life came from lifelessness, and I'll buy abiogenesis as a science, and not as a myth on the same level as religion. Show me the facts, not the wishes, and I'll believe you're discussing facts, not wishes.

You want to play on a level field, just give us SOMETHING that approaches what science provides as evidence.

I have. I've provided you nothing, as science has provided me.

What do you have? A similarity with numerous other religions which also had devout adherents who exhibited faith in the stories that they were told. None of those other religions can or could prove anything, either, yet yours is the "one" that explains everything? Your whole argument boils down to "I believe that God did it, so that must be the truth."

Well, no. But, regardless of my specific beliefs, I've yet to see anything beyond "we think it must be this way, so that's the truth" from the science side of things.

By trying to continue this battle you do your chosen religion an injustice, cheapen your beliefs, and discount your faith.

How?

Faith: belief in something with no proof or evidence.
Fine make that choice but keep it in the category where it belongs: religion. Do not try to teach faith as science.

I would suggest you do the same! Until you can show me the tests that prove abiogenesis, or the tests that demonstrate human (HUMAN) evolution, we're talking PURE FAITH in a WISH that science will one day know what the truth is.

Your rose bush? It probably came from, or is a descendant of a plant from, a garden nursery. It could be a species of wild rose -- not having visited your garden I can't discount that possibility. Maybe it isn't even a real rose. Was it placed there by a god? I consider that highly unlikely, given what I know about the way things work in the natural world.

Are you trying to be funny? It's not working. However, I'll presume you were too slow to follow - go back further, up the evolutionary chain of plant life for the parent life form of a rose bush. Go ahead, I'll wait for you to figure it out.

Funny you would write that; your responses sound like they come from someone without much education. I have studied biology, chemistry, anthropology, sociology, psychology, geology, geography, paleontology, and a few other things -- and oh yeah, theology.

Great, than you can stop sounding foolish now and use that education (or, er, did you not get very good grades? Argue with your teacher a lot about whether f=mg is the same as e=mc²?) to try and show the difference between science and abiogenesis, or the difference between science and HUMAN evolution.

[This_person]

Originally Posted by wildsage

Was that a slam? Ouch, mommy, that hurts.
So did a god make one and Einstein make the other? Or was it Newton that invented gravity? Or, wait, was it --- SATAN!?

Now you're getting closer to funny, if I didn't think you were asking in all seriousness.

[wildsage]

Originally Posted by This_person

I don't choose ignorance.

some don't have to choose ignorance, they are just incapable of moving beyond it.

Originally Posted by This_person

Show me the facts, not the wishes, and I'll believe you're discussing facts, not wishes.

2 words: evolutionary record. (Somehow I just know that you are waiting for that answer.)

Originally Posted by This_person

I have. I've provided you nothing,[...]

true

Originally Posted by This_person

[...]as science has provided me.

science has provided the facts for all who seek them.

Originally Posted by This_person

Are you trying to be funny? It's not working. However, I'll presume you were too slow to follow[...] I'll wait for you to figure it out[...] Great, than [then] you can stop sounding foolish now and use that education (or, er, did you not get very good grades?)[...] Now you're getting closer to funny, if I didn't think you were asking in all seriousness.

More slams? If I were a Christian and a practitioner of turn-the-other-cheek I wouldn't call you a "chromosome-deficient, home-schooled, mouth-breather" in response.

Originally Posted by This_person

Argue with your teacher a lot about whether f=mg[...]

Why would I argue that Fluorine is the same as Magnesium? One is a noble gas, the other a reactive metal!
Or don't you believe in the Periodic Table? It isn't in the bible, is it? (Nor vice versa.)

[This_person]

Originally Posted by wildsage

2 words: evolutionary record. (Somehow I just know that you are waiting for that answer.)

Why, because you know there isn't one?

science has provided the facts for all who seek them.

More slams? If I were a Christian and a practitioner of turn-the-other-cheek I wouldn't call you a "chromosome-deficient, home-schooled, mouth-breather" in response.[/quote]But, you're not so you will? And, that advances your argument how?

Why would I argue that Fluorine is the same as Magnesium? One is a noble gas, the other a reactive metal!

I didn't think you knew what the force of gravity was!

[wildsage]

Originally Posted by This_person

Why, because you know there isn't one?

There is: fossil record, anatomical & developmental similarities, genetic information, geographic dispersion, plate tectonics, etc. It supports the theory of common descent and provides evidence that explains speciation over long periods of time. What tiny shred of evidence does your chosen religion have that promotes its story as truth over scientific theory or over any of the other religions' explanations of creation? (Try "researching" from something besides the ICR website.)

Originally Posted by This_person

But, you're not so you will? And, that advances your argument how?

U slam me, I slam U back (but I'm not the one claiming to follow Christian ideals). Your nonsense responses (non-sponses? I like that; y'all feel free to use that without attribution) already derailed the discussion.

Originally Posted by This_person

I didn't think you knew what the force of gravity was!

Oh, you were trying for F=mg?