Christians should keep Scripture out of politics

[wildsage]

Originally Posted by PsyOps

Let me correct you here:
How’s that?

"a" magical occurrence over several millennia? I don't get it. Do you mean several millennia of belief in alleged miracles?

Originally Posted by PsyOps

I hope you are clear on one thing, that faith cannot be measured by some ambiguous equation.

Science can't be described with ambiguous equations; when they are ambiguous, they are hunches, wishes or lies.

Originally Posted by PsyOps

You simply refuse acknowledge that your belief in certain sciences simply goes no further than faith.

Call it faith if you will; it is a belief that everything abides by the natural laws. A chemical reaction will go the same way -- everytime -- if all the variables are controlled. Physical entities are subject to certain forces and must react in certain ways.

Originally Posted by PsyOps

And according to you none of us (that believe in a God) are right. Muslims, Christians, Hindu, etc… we’re all wrong.

Not necessarily; I don't have all the answers. All I can deduce is that if religions hold mutually contradicting beliefs, and one of those beliefs is "true" then the others have to be false. Which one? Pick the one that you feel comfortable with and accept it as religion, just don't try to teach it as fact.

Originally Posted by PsyOps

Just magic. It’s magic that the universe even exists in the first place regardless of how it got here. Your belief doesn’t have an answer for that; mine does.

It is PHENOMENAL that the universe exists, and that life developed as it did. It would be magic if the universe was devoid of energy yet life existed; it would be magic if, in our universe, hydrogen and oxygen didn't combine to form the compound water that has all of its specific properties yet lifeforms as we know them existed anyway.

[wildsage]

Originally Posted by PsyOps

Are you implying there is no knowledge to be gained by teaching religion? Religion is an integral part of our culture. To assume there is nothing to be gained by teaching it in our schools undermines the important role religion has played on global society since the dawning of man. You see, belief in a God has been around a lot longer than science. I would like for our scientific minds to puts some synapses together to discover how it is religion has been such a important part of the human experience over thousands of years. For something that is simply conjured up in dreaming minds, it sure seems to like to hang around.

I will not dispute the major role that religion has played in the development of humans. And I agree that teaching about the various religions is useful and valid -- even in school but in the proper context, as theology not as fact.
I am not so sure which came first, however, religion or science. Did the earliest species of humans develop a theology before they mastered fire? Did they discover that meat was good before they thought of a god to thank for it? It seems likely that as the primate brain developed, the various trial & error strategies that resulted in greater survival for a tribe (repeated observations that allowed them to draw conclusions) were scientific even if they didn't have the math or chemistry to complete the reasoning. But to grant any validity to that idea, one has to believe that man wasn't formed in his current state, capable of reading the Bible.
The mind is a wondrous thing. Humans have had millennia to think, and to learn to think. Once basic survival was handled, the brain was freed up for less-essential tasks. It would be amazing if, given the brain's capacity, humans had never developed inspirational things like Art & Religion.
Some of the laws in religious doctrine probably developed as necessary rules for getting along as society developed; many others come across as unreasonable superstition. Neither of those ideas precludes the fact that many people "get" something good from their religious faith -- and I don't mean something as crass as answered personal prayers; I'm thinking more of the intangible inner peace.
Cool. I am sincerely happy for them but not envious. I just want them to understand that in the viewpoints of others their choice of the one & only may not be right given that so many other possibilities have existed. The believers don't suffer that doubt because they to have faith -- belief in the absence of proof; that is the definition. Isn't that enough without trying to mix it up with science?

[This_person]

Originally Posted by Xaquin44

completely false as usual.

We can test for it

Please link me to a test, or a book on a test done, that provides ANY (even less than 100% conclusive) test demonstrating any of the things I described

which is why we keep learning and keep testing and researching.

If we had simply left things at 'god did it' we would never have learned anything. Moons around Jupiter? NAY sayeth the church. Carbon 14? NAY sayeth the church. Stem Cell Research? NAY sayeth the church.

etc.

You can't say anything about ID because aside from 'god did it' what else is there?

I'm certainly not for a closed mind, not doing research, not finding out HOW things happened. I've never said nor implied anything of the sort! I'm just saying there's no more proof, no more reason to believe scientists' fantasies and mythology than there is ID, because there is exactly 100% as much to back up what they're saying as what ID says.

[This_person]

Originally Posted by Xaquin44

creating a hypothesis and testing it?!

Again, show me the test for the origins of life. Show me the test for human evolution concurrent with plant evolution from the same life source.

why, that's hardly science?!

Exactly, there's no science to any theories or hypothesis regarding these issues

[This_person]

Originally Posted by wildsage

Ah, the well-known "tyranny of the majority" that our founding fathers sought to avoid by embodying freedom of religious practice.

The key word there, of course, is "practice". The government cannot establish, nor prohibit the free exercise thereof, religion.


That doesn't mean people can't talk about it.

[This_person]

Originally Posted by wildsage

That is the whole point: scientific theories ARE testable or they wouldn't be theories. Theory doesn't mean "hunch" nor does it mean "a story I believe in" nor "an idea that I hope is true in the absence of anything tangible."

So, again, show me the test for human and plant and insect "evolution" from a single life source.

What, there isn't one? Well, then certainly there's been a test that shows offspring species that are more advanced than the parent species, right?

What, no? Well, I guess evolution is just a "hunch", or "a story you believe in" or "an idea that you hope is true in the absence of anything tangible", since it meets none of your definitions of scientific theory!

We're back to saying that religious beliefs should be taught in theology classes, especially if they all get equal time; specific religious beliefs belong in the institution that harbors the community of those believers; science is taught in school because the purpose of school is to engender knowledge.

Or, scientific myth/fantasy, in this case.

[Xaquin44]

Originally Posted by This_person

Again, show me the test for the origins of life. Show me the test for human evolution concurrent with plant evolution from the same life source.

you're ignoring me and my arguement. There is no conclusive evidence right now. Which is why we're still looking. 500 years ago you could say the same thing about bacteria. As we progress further along we gain more knowledge that lets us fill in gaps correctly.

understand?

just because science doesn't have every single answer this second, doesn't mean it never will.

[Xaquin44]

Originally Posted by This_person

there's no science to any theories or hypothesis regarding these issues

of course there is. It's just a bunch of theories right now. Which is kind of the point.

[PsyOps]

Originally Posted by wildsage

"a" magical occurrence over several millennia? I don't get it. Do you mean several millennia of belief in alleged miracles?

I thought we were talking about religion. Religion as a mystical magical belief system. Now you want to narrow this discussion to miracles? For Christianity as a whole miracles are low on the totem pole of what defines our faith. I was addressing your contention of science being around centuries and contending that my faith has been around for much longer. If time is even an arguable factor.

Originally Posted by wildsage

Science can't be described with ambiguous equations; when they are ambiguous, they are hunches, wishes or lies.

Okay… give me the tangible elements that are defined under E=MC2? Energy. What specifically is energy? Mass. How does a physicist actually know the mass of the sun just by observing it from 92 million miles away? How can we really be sure that’s how far the sun is from the earth? Prove it. Constant. Scientists already know that light is not a constant. It’s velocity changes when affected by gravity. The theory breaks down around black holes and dark energy. Prove to me that time actually changes at the speed of light. You can’t. So you are left with math to state its truth. Short actually proof all you have are number to say it happens. But you can’t really prove it. You have to believe the math is right.

Originally Posted by wildsage

Call it faith if you will; it is a belief that everything abides by the natural laws. A chemical reaction will go the same way -- everytime -- if all the variables are controlled. Physical entities are subject to certain forces and must react in certain ways.

What natural laws? You mean laws that are only observable from earth? This implies that because we have defined these laws that are limited to what we can observe on this earth that they are uniform across the universe. Are these “natural laws” the same inside a black hole? Will a chemical reaction produce the same results in a black hole that it produced on earth? What was the first chemical reaction that spurred on the first inkling of life? Is that still happening? If so, where? If not, what conditions changed? And what were those special condition that, when life did not once exist suddenly came to be? How do you recreate that though a chemical reaction?

Originally Posted by wildsage

Not necessarily; I don't have all the answers. All I can deduce is that if religions hold mutually contradicting beliefs, and one of those beliefs is "true" then the others have to be false. Which one? Pick the one that you feel comfortable with and accept it as religion, just don't try to teach it as fact.

Either do I. That’s why I don’t dismiss anything. I believe all these factors co-exist. I believe just as we have several dimensions in space and time that there is also a spiritual dimension that science prefers to ignore for reasons I can’t explain. To me it’s less about deciding which religion is right and coming to the conclusion that there is a spiritual world that exists and we should seek it out. I have and believe as a Christian. In the end God will decide who is right.

Originally Posted by wildsage

It is PHENOMENAL that the universe exists, and that life developed as it did. It would be magic if the universe was devoid of energy yet life existed; it would be magic if, in our universe, hydrogen and oxygen didn't combine to form the compound water that has all of its specific properties yet lifeforms as we know them existed anyway.

What is this energy though? You can’t just say something is there without asking how it got there. What is it that causes hydrogen and oxygen to cling together to form water? Certainly not magic. I mean water is one our more simple compounds and we can’t even explain what energy causes these two elements to cling together in such a perfect manner to form water.

It’s not my intent to disclaim science. I’m simply playing the reverse role of questioning the validity of it in the same way you question the validity of God. I think it’s easy to call into question things we can’t actually observe through our physical senses. It’s difficult to take the leap of faith to believe these things are true. I refuse to limit myself to things that can only be observed through my physical senses. I am always on a path to seek out all things spiritual and physical. Things like faith don’t exist in a vacuum. Real, rational people believe in God and a spiritual plane. There has to be more to it than just magic.

[Xaquin44]

Originally Posted by This_person

So, again, show me the test for human and plant and insect "evolution" from a single life source.

Give it time. Rome wasn't built in a day.

Originally Posted by This_person

What, there isn't one? Well, then certainly there's been a test that shows offspring species that are more advanced than the parent species, right?.

I don't know about a specific test, but it has been observed (English moths, I don't feel like linking it so you can ignore it as I've done several times already).

Originally Posted by This_person

What, no? Well, I guess evolution is just a "hunch", or "a story you believe in" or "an idea that you hope is true in the absence of anything tangible", since it meets none of your definitions of scientific theory!Or, scientific myth/fantasy, in this case.

'yes', actually. Actually, it fits theory to a tee. You just refuse to acknowledge that fact.