Genesis 22

[Starman3000m]

Originally Posted by Xaquin44

also, foreknowing everything is the same thing as not having free will.

Actually, God knows us all too well. He knows which person will eventually accept Him and He knows which will ultimately reject Him.
Yet He offers everyone the same chance for you to love Him or not love Him as He loves mankind. That way, you can never say that you were not given a chance to accept the Free Gift of Salvation that He offerss through the Atoning Blood of His Only Begotten Son, Yeshua HaMashiach.

If everything is already foretold and everything happens exactly the way god knows it will then there isn't any room for actual freedom since it's all one big script.

If that was the case, then there would have been no reason for God to have sent His Son to die on the cross as an atonement for the sins of mankind.

God is a Just and More Than Fair God. It would be unfair for God to create people that had no choice in being able to accept His Offer for Salvation.

God offers His Free Gift of Salvation to everyone but not everyone wants to accept it - because they specifically choose not to believe Him.

"I Am The Way, The Truth and The Life, No Man Can Come Unto The Father Except Through Me." (John 14:6)

[Xaquin44]

Originally Posted by SamSpade

Dammit I forgot we've been down this road before. And your arguments were lame, then. Just because I know what you're going to do tomorrow doesn't obviate your choice to make that decision. Knowing the future doesn't "create" fate.

And you can go on, but I'm done.

actually it does. if I know every single thing that will happen ever and I'm never wrong then there is no room for free will, since apparently it has already been determined.

[Xaquin44]

Originally Posted by Starman3000m

If that was the case, then there would have been no reason for God to have sent His Son to die on the cross as an atonement for the sins of mankind.

pretty much yeah.

If he already knows and he is never wrong then there is really nothing that can be done.

example:

God knows I won't accept him.

so the two choices before me are:

1: Accept god

or

2: Don't accept god.

Now then, given that god is never wrong, I can't possibly accept him (because then god would be wrong), which limits me to one and only one choice. That choice being the one that was predetermined by god.

understand?

[This_person]

Originally Posted by Xaquin44

pretty much yeah.

If he already knows and he is never wrong then there is really nothing that can be done.

example:

God knows I won't accept him.

so the two choices before me are:

1: Accept god

or

2: Don't accept god.

Now then, given that god is never wrong, I can't possibly accept him (because then god would be wrong), which limits me to one and only one choice. That choice being the one that was predetermined by god.

understand?

When you know the outcome of every single choice that can be made, and every possibility that will come from that choice, you're omniscient. When you know the one and only outcome, there is no real free will, because it's already been decided.

So, God gives you free will, and knows you have the ability to make the choice to accept, or not accept. He knows what your life and after life will be like if you do, and knows what your life and after life will be like if you don't. The entire ball of string, and every potential outcome of every potential decision is known, but only YOU know which one you'll make. He knows all, because he knows both YES and NO. He does not determine your choice, He knows the outcome of your choice(s).

Isn't this like the 900th time you've made this argument, and always been wrong?

[Starman3000m]

Originally Posted by Xaquin44

pretty much yeah.

If he already knows and he is never wrong then there is really nothing that can be done.

example:

God knows I won't accept him.

so the two choices before me are:

1: Accept god

or

2: Don't accept god.

Now then, given that god is never wrong, I can't possibly accept him (because then god would be wrong), which limits me to one and only one choice. That choice being the one that was predetermined by god.

understand?

No - because if you want, you can let God know that you'd rather spend an eternity in Heaven than be subject to the alternative of spending an eternity separated from His Love for you.

The fact is: God is NOT preventing you from accepting His Free Offer to give you eternal life; YOU are choosing not to accept it - for reasons only you know about - as does He.

[Xaquin44]

Originally Posted by Starman3000m

No - because if you want, you can let God know that you'd rather spend an eternity in Heaven than be subject to the alternative of spending an eternity separated from His Love for you.

earlier, you said that god already knows what you're going to do though. Does he or doesn't he? If you get to choose, then god doesn't know what is going to happen, meaning that he isn't all knowing.

Originally Posted by Starman3000m

The fact is: God is NOT preventing you from accepting His Free Offer to give you eternal life; YOU are choosing not to accept it - for reasons only you know about - as does He.

If he knows the reasons, then not only you know them (your reasons).

[Starman3000m]

Originally Posted by Xaquin44

earlier, you said that god already knows what you're going to do though. Does he or doesn't he? If you get to choose, then god doesn't know what is going to happen, meaning that he isn't all knowing.

Yes - God knows what the ultimate decision that you make will be. Consider God to be like a "Super-Parent" who instructs a child not to do a specific thing because the consequences will be deadly. Yet God knows that the child will be rebellious, not want to listen and continue on into a dangerous situation. Hmmm... sounds like regular kids, eh?

If he knows the reasons, then not only you know them (your reasons).

That's the point. It's between you and God and nobody else when it comes to your eternity. God is always willing to have His arms open to accept you no matter what you've ever said or done in any disobedient way. It would be you that chooses to not respond to His call.

All you have to do is admit that you are not perfect (none of us are) be willing to confess that you have made some wrong choices in life and that you are willing to turn and accept His help in your life. The Gift of eternal life is made possible because of the Atonement that Yeshua already paid on your behalf. It's a done deal! However, you can't receive it unless you ask and that is the choice you can make. Do you want God to be in your life as He wishes to be in yours?

[Xaquin44]

Originally Posted by Starman3000m

Yes - God knows what the ultimate decision that you make will be.

ok so god does know and you have no choice. If it's predetermind (and it has to be if god already knows) then there is no choice, as you're just playing through the way it is already set up.

Do you get what I'm saying? If the outcome is known, the process is known, and neither are ever wrong then how do we have choice? Where are the decisions made if god knows (and has always known) what's going to happen?

Lets say for instance that you are going to go to heaven. Could you, right now, abandon god and there by prove him wrong? (not saying you will/are/have to/etc.)

edit: I'm not saying you have to do this, I'm asking if it is possible for you to do this.

Originally Posted by Starman3000m

Consider God to be like a "Super-Parent" who instructs a child not to do a specific thing because the consequences will be deadly. Yet God knows that the child will be rebellious, not want to listen and continue on into a dangerous situation. Hmmm... sounds like regular kids, eh?

Hey, my son acts up all the time, but I'd never be such a bad parent as to damn him to an eternity in hell.

[Starman3000m]

Originally Posted by Xaquin44

ok so god does know and you have no choice. If it's predetermind (and it has to be if god already knows) then there is no choice, as you're just playing through the way it is already set up.

Do you get what I'm saying? If the outcome is known, the process is known, and neither are ever wrong then how do we have choice? Where are the decisions made if god knows (and has always known) what's going to happen?

Lets say for instance that you are going to go to heaven. Could you, right now, abandon god and there by prove him wrong? (not saying you will/are/have to/etc.)

The only way a person can be going to heaven is if he/she has finally come to the conclusion that they can't live a perfect and obedient life to God, need a Saviour, and trust that God's Forgiveness and Plan of Salvation is attainable only through the Atoning Blood that His Son shed on behalf of anyone who accepts Him.

When one has received the spiritual (born-again) experience of personally knowing God, one would not trade it for the world. The Bible states that those who receive Him are "sealed with the Promise" of eternal life.

Hey, my son acts up all the time, but I'd never be such a bad parent as to damn him to an eternity in hell.

This world is already condemned because it fell under the influence of God's enemy, Satan, through the disobedience of Adam and Eve.

The Bible states that His Son did not come to condemn the world (it's already condemned) but that the world through Him might be saved.

If God was such a "bad parent" He would not have sacrificed His own Son in order to save you and your son.

[Xaquin44]

Originally Posted by Starman3000m

The only way a person can be going to heaven is if he/she has finally come to the conclusion that they can't live a perfect and obedient life to God, need a Saviour, and trust that God's Forgiveness and Plan of Salvation is attainable only through the Atoning Blood that His Son shed on behalf of anyone who accepts Him.

When one has received the spiritual (born-again) experience of personally knowing God, one would not trade it for the world. The Bible states that those who receive Him are "sealed with the Promise" of eternal life.

that isn't really what I asked. I know you wouldn't trade it for the world, I'm asking if you could. There is a big difference.

Originally Posted by Starman3000m

This world is already condemned because it fell under the influence of God's enemy, Satan, through the disobedience of Adam and Eve.

The Bible states that His Son did not come to condemn the world (it's already condemned) but that the world through Him might be saved.

If God was such a "bad parent" He would not have sacrificed His own Son in order to save you and your son.

First, punishing humanity for all time for the actions of the first two (the ones he actually created by the way) is stupid. I've been grounded before .... I would hope that my children and their children etc. etc. won't suffer too badly because of something I did ....

Actually, sacrificing his son proves that god is a terrible parent. Especially since he knows the future and could have easily seen the outcome.

edit: haha wow, god really is a bad parent lol

lets see here.

First Son: Adam. Married Eve (his sister) and was tempted by Satan (through the deeds of his sister). Got humanity kicked out of Paradise for eternity.

Daughter: Eve. Married Adam (her brother) and was tempted by Satan. Got humanity kicked out of Paradise for eternity.

Second Son: Jesus. Let get betrayed and crucified.

also as an aside, he knocked up the wife of a married man (which according to his own commandments you really shouldn't do).