Genesis 22

[libby]

Originally Posted by Nucklesack

Abraham was different, God said prove your faith by killing your son (shortened version).
With Mary, God sent the angel to tell her she will be the Mother of Jesus.

One is not the same as the other

Well, Abraham's history with God was pretty dramatic. God spoke quite clearly to Abraham re: having a son in his old age, and it came to pass as God had said. So, I'm not sure if I would have questioned the God who also had brought plagues upon Pharoah, destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah (and spared Abraham's family), among other things. It was pretty clear that God was God, and all-powerful at that. Abraham witnessed much of God's power, as well as His love and blessings to the obedient.
Mary, as most faithful Jews of the time, would have been pretty darn familiar with Scripture, and the Scripture does tell us that the Messiah would suffer and die for the sins of the world. So, to be willing to take on that role is darn similar to my way of thinking as what Abraham was asked to do.
Also, to be found pregnant while stilll unmarried was punishable by stoning during Mary's time. Yet, she trusted at that critical time that God would provide for her safety in one way or another, as He willed. Kind of like Jesus in Gethsemane.

[Nucklesack]

Originally Posted by libby

Well, Abraham's history with God was pretty dramatic. God spoke quite clearly to Abraham re: having a son in his old age, and it came to pass as God had said. So, I'm not sure if I would have questioned the God who also had brought plagues upon Pharoah, destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah (and spared Abraham's family), among other things. It was pretty clear that God was God, and all-powerful at that. Abraham witnessed much of God's power, as well as His love and blessings to the obedient.

And according to the scripture Abraham had a choice of choosing to show his faith

Originally Posted by libby

Mary, as most faithful Jews of the time, would have been pretty darn familiar with Scripture, and the Scripture does tell us that the Messiah would suffer and die for the sins of the world. So, to be willing to take on that role is darn similar to my way of thinking as what Abraham was asked to do.
Also, to be found pregnant while stilll unmarried was punishable by stoning during Mary's time. Yet, she trusted at that critical time that God would provide for her safety in one way or another, as He willed. Kind of like Jesus in Gethsemane.

Your missing the point, God (through the Angel) tells Mary she will be the mother of the Messiah, he will do this he will do that. The decision was already made, God is just offering the courtesy of letting Mary know.

[Starman3000m]

Originally Posted by Nucklesack

Abraham was different, God said prove your faith by killing your son (shortened version).
With Mary, God sent the angel to tell her she will be the Mother of Jesus.

One is not the same as the other

When you allow God to be "GOD" then you will be able to comprehend that He will do and accomplish things that go beyond our own human comprehension.

Of course, Mary could have said no in which case God would have chosen an alternate. HOWEVER, Mary found favor with God because He knew her heart and knew that she would be willing and obedient to accept the opportunity of being the mother of the Saviour of mankind.

In other words, God chose the best candidate for the job and, being all-knowing, He knew that Mary would accept, albeit she was totally surprised and puzzled at first about how she would be able to bare a child when she had not "known" any man.

A "human example" is this: The richest corporation is on an international hunt for the best candidate to introduce the next product that will revolutionize the world. This product will one day bring world peace, end evil and allow users to live eternally.

The candidate must be completely honest and be an individual whose moral and ethical standards are above reproach.

After a computer check of all qualified individuals one name comes up as to who is the best candidate. That candidate is Nucklesack.

A company representative is then sent to meet Nucklesack and delivers the following message:

Mr. Nucklesack, you have been selected to engineer the next revolutionary invention into this world. Our company has conducted a world-wide search and found that you are the best candidate to accomplish this. What you will produce will bring peace into the lives of individuals and give them eternal life. What's more, this will be given Free to anyone who asks. This will revolutionize the world and people will call you highly favored for bringing this into existence.

Nucklesack replies: "But, I don't have engineering background nor do I have a degree."

Company representative replies: "Not to worry, Nucklesack, you have been found to be the most trustworthy individual in the world. You don't need any engineering knowledge nor an engineering degree. Our company will develop everything and all you need to do is be the one to introduce it to the public. You will be the link that makes this happen in the world."

Will Nucklesack say "No" ?

[libby]

Originally Posted by Nucklesack

And according to the scripture Abraham had a choice of choosing to show his faith

Your missing the point, God (through the Angel) tells Mary she will be the mother of the Messiah, he will do this he will do that. The decision was already made, God is just offering the courtesy of letting Mary know.

Gen 22, "God said, "Take your son Isaac, your only one, whom you love, and go to the land...you shall offer him up as a sacrifice"
Doesn't sound like a question to me. Both Abraham and Mary were free to do their own will.
Just as with A and E, God said, "you shall not eat". This seems as definitive a statement as God's word to either Abraham or Mary, yet we see that indeed there was human choice in the equation.

[Nucklesack]

Originally Posted by libby

Gen 22, "God said, "Take your son Isaac, your only one, whom you love, and go to the land...you shall offer him up as a sacrifice"
Doesn't sound like a question to me. Both Abraham and Mary were free to do their own will.
Just as with A and E, God said, "you shall not eat". This seems as definitive a statement as God's word to either Abraham or Mary, yet we see that indeed there was human choice in the equation.

We'll have to agree to disagree, I see an Angel telling Mary that she will do something as it already being decided.

You see it differently

[libby]

Originally Posted by Nucklesack

We'll have to agree to disagree, I see an Angel telling Mary that she will do something as it already being decided.

You see it differently

[PsyOps]

Originally Posted by Xaquin44

no, I've been accused of abandoning god .... like you quoted and said was impossible.

Okay, now you have to be purposely spinning what I am saying. I didn't say it was impossible to abandon God. I said it was impossible to go to heaven if you have abandoned God.

I know there is the old argument that says once you are saved you are always saved and if you abandon God thereafter it's just a temporary backslide. Well, abandoning God would mean you have lost all faith, completely; which means you never had it to begin with; so therefore never saved to begin with.

Bottom line, you cannot test God to prove Him wrong. You will lose.

[PsyOps]

Originally Posted by Nucklesack

Your missing the point, God (through the Angel) tells Mary she will be the mother of the Messiah, he will do this he will do that. The decision was already made, God is just offering the courtesy of letting Mary know.

Q1: Are you telling me if God spoke to you and said you were going to give birth to the Son of God, you would say "naw God, but thanks. I don't like that you are predermining my life for me"?

Q2: If you knew God was playing puppet and every move we make was predetermined, how would this change how you live your life?

Q3: Because knows everything before it happen, does this mean he is predetermining everything, or is it that he just knows?

[libby]

Just like earthly parents of a child, we know them better than they know themselves. God knows us so much better than we know ourselves, and that is why He knows our choices.
I have a kid with a sweet tooth. If I leave a plate of just-baked cookies on the counter, I know darn well he's going to sneak one (just an example, not my own situation), and then he's going to have the pay the price for "stealing" the cookie.
I know who the likely culprit is when the kids have an altercation, just because I know each personality so well that I didn't have to be there.
God the Father is sssoooo much more. But, God also knows what has brought each of us to each of our decisions. As a Catholic, I can say that a person who walks away from Jesus Christ because of the actions of a homosexual or pedophile priest, is likely to get a lot more understanding from God at judgement time than, for instance, a person who wants to have an extra-marital affair.

[Xaquin44]

Originally Posted by PsyOps

Okay, now you have to be purposely spinning what I am saying. I didn't say it was impossible to abandon God. I said it was impossible to go to heaven if you have abandoned God.

I know there is the old argument that says once you are saved you are always saved and if you abandon God thereafter it's just a temporary backslide. Well, abandoning God would mean you have lost all faith, completely; which means you never had it to begin with; so therefore never saved to begin with.

Bottom line, you cannot test God to prove Him wrong. You will lose.

then in that case we have no free will.

If he knows everything and is never wrong then we can't waver from our course because then god would be wrong.