Genesis 22

[Starman3000m]

Originally Posted by Xaquin44

then in that case we have no free will.

If he knows everything and is never wrong then we can't waver from our course because then god would be wrong.

Correct! Are you surprised that I agree here?

What you state actually is true in the following sense:

God offers Xaquin and Xaquin's son/family the opportunity to have eternal life - not because of the good that they did in life but because they accepted God's Plan of Salvation through Christ.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

Xaquin hears/reads the message and ponders whether to believe and accept God's Plan of Salvation through Christ or believe there is another way:

Jesus said , I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6)

Xaquin (like all skeptics) cannot understand and argues the point about God's way of doing things:

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

Xaquin's position (and those of all mankind) are described in Matthew Chapter 13:
BibleGateway.com - Passage#Lookup: Matthew 13:1-58;

Xaquin makes the final decision on whether to accept or not accept.

God knows the decision we will all make. It was not pre-decided by God but decided by a personal response of whether one accepts God's Plan of Salvation or whether one wants to remain apart from God and live as he/she wants to live:

John, Chapter 3, verses:
17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19: And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20: For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21: But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.


Salvation is not acquired by individual efforts to "be good" but through the Divine Grace of God. It's a done deal but needs to be accepted:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2: 8-9)

To receive God's Plan of Salvation, one must invite the Saviour into his/her life.

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (Revelation 3:20)

God has already placed the choice before us. God even suggests which choice to make - BUT each person must decide whether to accept God's Plan or try going a different route:

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: (Deuteronomy 30:19)

...Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (Acts 16:31)

[Xaquin44]

Originally Posted by Starman3000m

Xaquin makes the final decision on whether to accept or not accept.

incorrect.

if god knows all and can't be wrong, that decision was made by god before I even had the chance to think it over.

that's what you're not getting here.

If god can't be wrong and already knows every outcome then we're on a predestined course.

explain how we aren't if you disagree.

[libby]

Originally Posted by Xaquin44

incorrect.

if god knows all and can't be wrong, that decision was made by god before I even had the chance to think it over.

that's what you're not getting here.

If god can't be wrong and already knows every outcome then we're on a predestined course.

explain how we aren't if you disagree.

God knowing what your decisions will be is not the same as making the decisions for you.
Simple as that.

[toppick08 (Premo)]

Originally Posted by libby

God knowing what your decisions will be is not the same as making the decisions for you.
Simple as that.

True

[Starman3000m]

Originally Posted by libby

God knowing what your decisions will be is not the same as making the decisions for you.
Simple as that.

Exactly!

[Xaquin44]

Originally Posted by libby

God knowing what your decisions will be is not the same as making the decisions for you.
Simple as that.

no it is the same.

If you know it and can't be wrong then it is predestined.

I've proven this numerous times with several examples.

but just for fun, I'll do it again.

God knows that you, Libby, are going to heaven. Since he is all knowing, he has known this since the dawn of time. Could you prove him wrong?

Simply by knowing the outcome of every single life/situation/whatever, and NEVER being wrong, he is, by default, made our lives nothing but a show to live through.

[Xaquin44]

Originally Posted by toppick08

True

only if you don't think about it.

[Xaquin44]

Originally Posted by Starman3000m

Exactly!

See above.

[libby]

Xaquin,
There will probably be no convincing you, so I'll give this just a couple more shots.
The most basic truth that Christians accept is that God made us out of His love, desiring that we would know Him and love Him. However, in His infinite wisdom He knew that love, by definition is not pre-programmed into the beloved, it must freely given.
To put this on a human level, if you are a dad then think back to the newborn baby in your life. You spend years giving them every good thing from food to rules for living rightly in the world. You give all that you have and know freely to that child because you love him and you want him to be happy. You know that hard work and self-discipline are the keys to being truly happy as an adult, right? Otherwise he may end up in jail, or with a lousy job, or addicted to drugs.
Someday, when that child is grown he thanks you for the love and guidance you provided while he was young and foolish, he can now see that you have always known best.
Would you have loved him, or would he have shown love for you if you had locked him away for 25 years to keep him out of trouble? I mean, really, then you could have been sure of his safety, right?? But, it is not love given to your child, nor is love what is received from your son.
I've got more to add, but I've gotta go for now...

[libby]

You assert one of two things. If we have free will, then God cannot be omniscient, and therefore He is not God. Or, if we are pre-destined, then we do not have free will, which makes God a liar, and therefore not God.
You make the mistake of assuming in your thesis that free will and divine foreknowledge cannot exist together.
"For He is called omnipotent on account of His doing what He wills, not on account of His suffering what He wills not; for if that should befall Him, He would by no means be omnipotent. Wherefore, He cannot do some things for the very reason that He is omnipotent." St. Augustine of Hippo




God does not will or create a situation that makes Him not God.