Are religious objections to equality for gay Americans valid?

Bertha Venation · 08-30-2003, 12:55 PM

From And Say Hi to Joyce by Deb Price, author, columnist, and recent official bride after seventeen years of marriage

An engineering professor is treating her husband, a loan officer, to dinner for finally giving in to her pleas to shave off the scraggly beard he grew on vacation. His favorite restaurant is a casual place where they both feel comfortable in slacks and cotton/polyester-blend golf shirts. But, as always, she wears the gold and pearl pendant he gave her the day her divorce decree was final. They're laughing over their menus because they know he always ends up diving into a giant plate of ribs but she won't be talked into anything more fattening than shrimp.

Quiz: How many biblical prohibitions are they violating?

Well, wives are supposed to be 'submissive' to their husbands (I Peter 3:1). And all women are forbidden to teach men (I Timothy 2:12), wear gold or pearls (I Timothy 2:9) or dress in clothing that 'pertains to a man' (Deuteronomy 22:5). Shellfish and pork are definitely out (Leviticus 11:7, 10) as are usury (Deuteronomy 23:19), shaving (Leviticus 19:27) and clothes of more than one fabric (Leviticus 19:19). And since the Bible rarely recognizes divorce, they're committing adultery, which carries the rather harsh penalty of death by stoning (Deuteronomy 22:22).

So why are they having such a good time? Probably because they wouldn't think of worrying about rules that seem absurd, anachronistic or - at best - unrealistic. Yet this same modern-day couple could easily be among the millions of Americans who never hesitate to lean on the Bible to justify their own anti-gay attitudes.

*Larry Gude* ^(Premo) · 09-01-2003, 11:27 AM

...gay are they?

Quote:

...her husband, a loan officer, to dinner for finally giving in to her pleas to shave off the scraggly beard he grew on vacation. His favorite restaurant...

Oh, thank God!

:

vraiblonde · 09-01-2003, 01:42 PM

Are religious objections to equality for gay Americans valid?

I vote No. Especially in light of that Episcopal Bishop and various other accepted homosexuals within the church. Anyway, the Bible is pretty clear that we mere mortals aren't the judges or the jury. That's God's job. All we're supposed to do is not associate with sinners.

Bertha Venation · 09-02-2003, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vraiblonde
All we're supposed to do is not associate with sinners.

Many contend that gay people are "more 'sinnerly'" than most. I don't see it--I didn't even think so when I was a dyed-in-the-wool fundamentalist Christian--and this piece from Deb Price shows many excellent examples why I don't see it.

09-02-2003, 09:02 PM

I will disclaim all of this right up front! Just presenting the facts as Christians see them... for the sake of arguement.

"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God" (I Cor 6:9-10, NIV).

People who accept gay theology say that a different word should really be used where this Bible translation says "homosexual offenders." They say that the original Greek word that Paul uses, arsenokoite, refers to male prostitutes, not to two homosexual adults in a committed relationship.

To the average person, who has not been taught about this by their church and who doesn't know anything about biblical Greek, this argument sounds quite reasonable. But there are scholarly reasons for believing that the word Paul uses does refer to homosexual behaviour in general, not just male prostitution.

Broader Arguments

People who promote gay theology use a number of broader arguments to argue against the traditional view that homosexual behaviour is immoral. Here I will briefly discuss a few.

Gay Theology Argument #1: Jesus never even mentioned homosexuality. If he didn't say anything about homosexuality, it must not be that important to him. If it wasn't important to him, we shouldn't worry about it either.

Response: Arguing from silence, as this is called, can be dangerous. Jesus didn't say anything about flying airplanes into the sides of office towers, either. Does this mean that he doesn't care? Or that it's okay to fly planes into buildings? If he had been walking on this earth during the month of September, 2001, he might have said quite a bit about it. During his life, it was not relevant.

Similarly, homosexual behaviour was not an issue for the Jews who lived at the time of Jesus. Their holy book, the Torah, was clear about it; it was punishable by death, as were adultery and other sexual sins. There was no particular reason for Jesus to talk about it.

Gay Theology Argument #2: The Apostle Paul didn't know much about human sexuality. He wouldn't have had any idea that some people might actually be born gay. As well, most of what Paul saw was either male temple prostitution, or the older man/younger man homosexual relationships that were common in Greek culture. It makes sense that he would say these things are wrong.

Response: What's the reality? Paul was not an uneducated peasant who lived his whole life in a little village. He was highly educated and lived in at least four cosmopolitan cities where he would have seen people from many cultures, religions and sexual backgrounds.

It is more likely that he would have understood that sexuality is complex. The people of his day were no strangers to sexual nuance. For example, in Matthew 19:12 Jesus refers to three different reasons why some men are eunuchs (a man or boy whose testicles are nonfunctioning or have been removed).

Paul would also have been familiar with the writings of philosophers like Plato, who distinguished between men attracted to boys and men attracted to other men. Regarding homosexuality, it's not reasonable to assume Paul didn't know what he was talking about.

Gay Theology Argument #3: The Bible was used in the past to justify slavery and oppression of women, and is still being used to justify mistreating homosexual people. Just as we have come to understand that the Bible does not endorse slavery or the oppression of women, we need to realize it does not approve of oppressing homosexual people either.

Response: Paul taught us that all people are made in the image of God, and all are equal before Him. Christians interpret this to mean that all people should be treated with dignity and respect, not as property. This principle applies to homosexual people.

The part that bothers me...................

Even though in the past people took quotes out of the Bible to justify slavery and the oppression of women, nowhere does the Bible say that being a slave or a woman is immoral. But the Bible does say clearly and repeatedly that homosexual behaviour is immoral.

vraiblonde · 09-02-2003, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kain99
But the Bible does say clearly and repeatedly that homosexual behaviour is immoral.

And Jesus said, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." And something about motes in eyes.

Good post, Kain. I like a real dissenting view. Makes for better conversation.

Doc · 09-03-2003, 08:48 AM

"arsenokoite" (ar-SEN-oh-KOY-teh) is a Greek word unknown before its use by Paul. However, it appears to be composed of the words "arsane" which means "manly" and "koite" which means "couch" or "bed."

So, clearly, manly couches will NOT be allowed into heaven. Left open is the question of whether frilly pink girly couches will be granted Eternal Bliss.

(It's always nice to have a use for those schoolboy years spent slaving away learning Greek.)

Disclaimer: I wouldn't dream of implying that this and innumerable other examples of vague, sloppy language make the Bible an ureliable source to use as baseline for morality. I'm a big fan of the Bible. Here's my inspiring true story of how the Bible helped me. One day, back in grad school, I was walking to my lab, and there was one of those Gideons standing on the corner handout out little Bibles. Before I knew it, he thrust one into my hand. I looked down at it. Hmmm...about half an inch thick. Hundreds of very thin pages packed together would be a good way of absorbing low frequency vibrations....I ran back and asked him if I could have some more. "I know some folks that need these." He happily gave me like 20 of them. I ran back to my lab. See, I had this laser that I wanted to vary the height of in half-inch steps, and it had to be isolated from the mechanical noise of some diff-pumps attached to the table. I was just going to cut equal-thickness blocks of hard rubber out, but thanks to the stack of Bibles I now owned I saved a lot of work. Over the years they came in handy for leveling tables, propping up optics, and even insultating a cryogenic cooling system. So really I'm very thankful for the Bible.

TripleJ · 09-03-2003, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doc
"arsenokoite" (ar-SEN-oh-KOY-teh) is a Greek word unknown before its use by Paul. However, it appears to be composed of the words "arsane" which means "manly" and "koite" which means "couch" or "bed."

So, clearly, manly couches will NOT be allowed into heaven. Left open is the question of whether frilly pink girly couches will be granted Eternal Bliss.

(It's always nice to have a use for those schoolboy years spent slaving away learning Greek.)

Disclaimer: I wouldn't dream of implying that this and innumerable other examples of vague, sloppy language make the Bible an ureliable source to use as baseline for morality. I'm a big fan of the Bible. Here's my inspiring true story of how the Bible helped me. One day, back in grad school, I was walking to my lab, and there was one of those Gideons standing on the corner handout out little Bibles. Before I knew it, he thrust one into my hand. I looked down at it. Hmmm...about half an inch thick. Hundreds of very thin pages packed together would be a good way of absorbing low frequency vibrations....I ran back and asked him if I could have some more. "I know some folks that need these." He happily gave me like 20 of them. I ran back to my lab. See, I had this laser that I wanted to vary the height of in half-inch steps, and it had to be isolated from the mechanical noise of some diff-pumps attached to the table. I was just going to cut equal-thickness blocks of hard rubber out, but thanks to the stack of Bibles I now owned I saved a lot of work. Over the years they came in handy for leveling tables, propping up optics, and even insultating a cryogenic cooling system. So really I'm very thankful for the Bible.

Thanks for the helpful hints, I usually just throw them out

Pete · 09-03-2003, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doc
[BDisclaimer: I wouldn't dream of implying that this and innumerable other examples of vague, sloppy language make the Bible an ureliable source to use as baseline for morality. I'm a big fan of the Bible. Here's my inspiring true story of how the Bible helped me. One day, back in grad school, I was walking to my lab, and there was one of those Gideons standing on the corner handout out little Bibles. Before I knew it, he thrust one into my hand. I looked down at it. Hmmm...about half an inch thick. Hundreds of very thin pages packed together would be a good way of absorbing low frequency vibrations....I ran back and asked him if I could have some more. "I know some folks that need these." He happily gave me like 20 of them. I ran back to my lab. See, I had this laser that I wanted to vary the height of in half-inch steps, and it had to be isolated from the mechanical noise of some diff-pumps attached to the table. I was just going to cut equal-thickness blocks of hard rubber out, but thanks to the stack of Bibles I now owned I saved a lot of work. Over the years they came in handy for leveling tables, propping up optics, and even insultating a cryogenic cooling system. So really I'm very thankful for the Bible. [/B]

I find this disturbing, I shouldn't but I do.

Sharon · 09-03-2003, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pete
I find this disturbing

Makes you wonder why athiest azzclowns like Doc and TripleJ bother to post in the religion fourm, huh?

They don't have anything constructive to say, but they sure look like hell-bent-for-leather-heathens.

P.S. I don't pay them any mind either.

08-30-2003, 12:55 PM	#1
Bertha Venation Talk Show Host Member Since: Aug 2003 Location: Charles Co., MD Posts: 460	Are religious objections to equality for gay Americans valid? From And Say Hi to Joyce by Deb Price, author, columnist, and recent official bride after seventeen years of marriage An engineering professor is treating her husband, a loan officer, to dinner for finally giving in to her pleas to shave off the scraggly beard he grew on vacation. His favorite restaurant is a casual place where they both feel comfortable in slacks and cotton/polyester-blend golf shirts. But, as always, she wears the gold and pearl pendant he gave her the day her divorce decree was final. They're laughing over their menus because they know he always ends up diving into a giant plate of ribs but she won't be talked into anything more fattening than shrimp. Quiz: How many biblical prohibitions are they violating? Well, wives are supposed to be 'submissive' to their husbands (I Peter 3:1). And all women are forbidden to teach men (I Timothy 2:12), wear gold or pearls (I Timothy 2:9) or dress in clothing that 'pertains to a man' (Deuteronomy 22:5). Shellfish and pork are definitely out (Leviticus 11:7, 10) as are usury (Deuteronomy 23:19), shaving (Leviticus 19:27) and clothes of more than one fabric (Leviticus 19:19). And since the Bible rarely recognizes divorce, they're committing adultery, which carries the rather harsh penalty of death by stoning (Deuteronomy 22:22). So why are they having such a good time? Probably because they wouldn't think of worrying about rules that seem absurd, anachronistic or - at best - unrealistic. Yet this same modern-day couple could easily be among the millions of Americans who never hesitate to lean on the Bible to justify their own anti-gay attitudes. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter Add post to Facebook __________________ "Courage is the price that life exacts for granting peace." Amelia Earhart "An eye for an eye" leaves the whole world blind. M.K. Gandhi
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09-01-2003, 01:42 PM	#3
vraiblonde Bored Mommy Member Since: Mar 2001 Location: Off the grid Posts: 89,094	Are religious objections to equality for gay Americans valid? I vote No. Especially in light of that Episcopal Bishop and various other accepted homosexuals within the church. Anyway, the Bible is pretty clear that we mere mortals aren't the judges or the jury. That's God's job. All we're supposed to do is not associate with sinners. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter Add post to Facebook
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09-02-2003, 09:02 PM	#5
Kain99 Guest Posts: n/a	I will disclaim all of this right up front! Just presenting the facts as Christians see them... for the sake of arguement. "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God" (I Cor 6:9-10, NIV). People who accept gay theology say that a different word should really be used where this Bible translation says "homosexual offenders." They say that the original Greek word that Paul uses, arsenokoite, refers to male prostitutes, not to two homosexual adults in a committed relationship. To the average person, who has not been taught about this by their church and who doesn't know anything about biblical Greek, this argument sounds quite reasonable. But there are scholarly reasons for believing that the word Paul uses does refer to homosexual behaviour in general, not just male prostitution. Broader Arguments People who promote gay theology use a number of broader arguments to argue against the traditional view that homosexual behaviour is immoral. Here I will briefly discuss a few. Gay Theology Argument #1: Jesus never even mentioned homosexuality. If he didn't say anything about homosexuality, it must not be that important to him. If it wasn't important to him, we shouldn't worry about it either. Response: Arguing from silence, as this is called, can be dangerous. Jesus didn't say anything about flying airplanes into the sides of office towers, either. Does this mean that he doesn't care? Or that it's okay to fly planes into buildings? If he had been walking on this earth during the month of September, 2001, he might have said quite a bit about it. During his life, it was not relevant. Similarly, homosexual behaviour was not an issue for the Jews who lived at the time of Jesus. Their holy book, the Torah, was clear about it; it was punishable by death, as were adultery and other sexual sins. There was no particular reason for Jesus to talk about it. Gay Theology Argument #2: The Apostle Paul didn't know much about human sexuality. He wouldn't have had any idea that some people might actually be born gay. As well, most of what Paul saw was either male temple prostitution, or the older man/younger man homosexual relationships that were common in Greek culture. It makes sense that he would say these things are wrong. Response: What's the reality? Paul was not an uneducated peasant who lived his whole life in a little village. He was highly educated and lived in at least four cosmopolitan cities where he would have seen people from many cultures, religions and sexual backgrounds. It is more likely that he would have understood that sexuality is complex. The people of his day were no strangers to sexual nuance. For example, in Matthew 19:12 Jesus refers to three different reasons why some men are eunuchs (a man or boy whose testicles are nonfunctioning or have been removed). Paul would also have been familiar with the writings of philosophers like Plato, who distinguished between men attracted to boys and men attracted to other men. Regarding homosexuality, it's not reasonable to assume Paul didn't know what he was talking about. Gay Theology Argument #3: The Bible was used in the past to justify slavery and oppression of women, and is still being used to justify mistreating homosexual people. Just as we have come to understand that the Bible does not endorse slavery or the oppression of women, we need to realize it does not approve of oppressing homosexual people either. Response: Paul taught us that all people are made in the image of God, and all are equal before Him. Christians interpret this to mean that all people should be treated with dignity and respect, not as property. This principle applies to homosexual people. The part that bothers me................... Even though in the past people took quotes out of the Bible to justify slavery and the oppression of women, nowhere does the Bible say that being a slave or a woman is immoral. But the Bible does say clearly and repeatedly that homosexual behaviour is immoral. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter Add post to Facebook Last edited by Kain99; 09-03-2003 at 10:28 AM.
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09-03-2003, 08:48 AM	#7
Doc Registered User Member Since: May 2002 Location: Where you least expect it Posts: 86	It's all Greek to me "arsenokoite" (ar-SEN-oh-KOY-teh) is a Greek word unknown before its use by Paul. However, it appears to be composed of the words "arsane" which means "manly" and "koite" which means "couch" or "bed." So, clearly, manly couches will NOT be allowed into heaven. Left open is the question of whether frilly pink girly couches will be granted Eternal Bliss. (It's always nice to have a use for those schoolboy years spent slaving away learning Greek.) Disclaimer: I wouldn't dream of implying that this and innumerable other examples of vague, sloppy language make the Bible an ureliable source to use as baseline for morality. I'm a big fan of the Bible. Here's my inspiring true story of how the Bible helped me. One day, back in grad school, I was walking to my lab, and there was one of those Gideons standing on the corner handout out little Bibles. Before I knew it, he thrust one into my hand. I looked down at it. Hmmm...about half an inch thick. Hundreds of very thin pages packed together would be a good way of absorbing low frequency vibrations....I ran back and asked him if I could have some more. "I know some folks that need these." He happily gave me like 20 of them. I ran back to my lab. See, I had this laser that I wanted to vary the height of in half-inch steps, and it had to be isolated from the mechanical noise of some diff-pumps attached to the table. I was just going to cut equal-thickness blocks of hard rubber out, but thanks to the stack of Bibles I now owned I saved a lot of work. Over the years they came in handy for leveling tables, propping up optics, and even insultating a cryogenic cooling system. So really I'm very thankful for the Bible. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter Add post to Facebook __________________ If you build a man a fire, you keep him warm for an evening. But when you set a man on fire, you keep him warm for the rest of his life.
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