Standing up for our Faith

[libby]

Originally Posted by PsyOps

Judge not, that ye be not judged. (Matthew 7:1)

IMO this means that we are not to judge the "why" of the action. An action can be objectively wrong, but since we do not know the mind and heart of the individual, we are not to judge the state of their soul, i.e. "you will go to hell because you won't repent."

[PsyOps]

Originally Posted by libby

IMO this means that we are not to judge the "why" of the action. An action can be objectively wrong, but since we do not know the mind and heart of the individual, we are not to judge the state of their soul, i.e. "you will go to hell because you won't repent."

Along those same lines, don't condemn. Condemnation is God's. I think most of us know something is wrong when we see it and that would be a fair judgment. And I believe applying the law in judgment of someone – even sentencing them to death – is not only fair but demanded by God. He wanted us to make laws to govern our actions and apply appropriate punishment for violating that law. But in the context of the thread, I believe God wouldn’t want us to judge other faiths but rather be an example of our own faith to convince them that ours is the truth. It was funny that Jesus didn’t condemn anyone except those of his own faith. He knew everyone else was just misled and innocent of their ignorance. But those that were responsible for leading the people in their faith were misleading everyone, and they were the ones in need of His judgment. If we judge anyone it should be those that are abusing our own faith to deceive people. But you are right, we can't see into someone's soul.

[libby]

It was funny that Jesus didn’t condemn anyone except those of his own faith.

Great observation. I hadn't thought of that. So, the lesson might be to "admonish" those who claim to be (in my case, Catholic) who do not adhere to Catholic doctrine. I can dialogue, but not argue, with others.
Italian Scallion (for instance) should be discussing what the Bible says with those who believe that the Bible is the sole rule of faith, and as you said, just be an example to others.

Something to pray about....

[Zguy28]

Originally Posted by PsyOps

Judge not, that ye be not judged. (Matthew 7:1)

"For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." ~ Matthew 7:2

If you do judge others expect the same measure to be used to judge you. That's all.

Jesus was teaching not to be a hypocrite. Paul speaks about this in Romans 2 & 14 also.

Paul also teaches that we should not personally judge people outside the church, but he is explicit that we should exercise sound judgment within the church. See 1 Corinthians 5.

The Law of God (summed up in the Ten Commandments) judges those outside the grace of God and Jesus Christ. On the Day of Judgment the Law will be used as the evidence for conviction of those who are doomed to eternal destruction.

[ItalianScallion (Premo)]

Originally Posted by PsyOps

But in the context of the thread, I believe God wouldn’t want us to judge other faiths but rather be an example of our own faith to convince them that ours is the truth. It was funny that Jesus didn’t condemn anyone except those of his own faith. He knew everyone else was just misled and innocent of their ignorance.

Maybe I'm not reading these responses right.
God most certainly wants us to speak out against "other faiths". He spent much of the Bible telling us to and how to. False teachers, false prophets, He spoke judgment and the dangers of eternal death to them. We ARE to speak out against them but I do agree that it is God's place to judge if they're saved or not. You make it sound like we should accept whatever anyone says about God and leave them in their error.

Originally Posted by libby

So, the lesson might be to "admonish" those who claim to be (in my case, Catholic) who do not adhere to Catholic doctrine. I can dialogue, but not argue, with others.
Italian Scallion (for instance) should be discussing what the Bible says with those who believe that the Bible is the sole rule of faith....

You can and are required to "dialogue.....with others" in and out of the faith. We who have the truth are required to point out the false teachings of anyone.
Where do you read that I ....should be discussing what the Bible says ONLY with those who believe that the Bible is the sole rule of faith...???

Originally Posted by Zguy28

"For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." ~ Matthew 7:2
If you do judge others expect the same measure to be used to judge you. That's all.
Jesus was teaching not to be a hypocrite. Paul speaks about this in Romans 2 & 14 also.
Paul also teaches that we should not personally judge people outside the church, but he is explicit that we should exercise sound judgment within the church. See 1 Corinthians 5.
The Law of God (summed up in the Ten Commandments) judges those outside the grace of God and Jesus Christ. On the Day of Judgment the Law will be used as the evidence for conviction of those who are doomed to eternal destruction.

I think you are all confused about what the word "judge" means.
We are no longer under ANY spiritual law (Galatians 3) so the judgment will come from God Himself in regards to salvation through Christ (10 commandments included but not exclusive).
Jesus said when you judge make a right judgment (John 7v24) so is He in a contradiction with Himself?
We ARE to judge a person's actions and words, not their soul. However, if someone tells me that they believe in a different God & Jesus than the Bible speaks of, I will let them know what they're in danger of. Would you epxect me to sound like Oprah and say whatever you believe is OK with God???

[PsyOps]

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

Maybe I'm not reading these responses right.
God most certainly wants us to speak out against "other faiths". He spent much of the Bible telling us to and how to. False teachers, false prophets, He spoke judgment and the dangers of eternal death to them. We ARE to speak out against them but I do agree that it is God's place to judge if they're saved or not. You make it sound like we should accept whatever anyone says about God and leave them in their error.

Speaking out against other faiths and condemning those in their beliefs is not the same thing. This clings to Jesus’ command to “love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you”. Jesus corrected those who spoke out against him but he also forgave them. We shouldn’t accept whatever anyone says about God. I would attempt to tell them why I think my faith is right and that would be it. I’m not into thumping my Bible over peoples’ heads. Too many have been turned away from God by using these condemning tactics. Jesus showed love and compassion not condemnation; the only caveat being those leaders in the Sanhedrin.

[ItalianScallion (Premo)]

Originally Posted by PsyOps

Speaking out against other faiths and condemning those in their beliefs is not the same thing. This clings to Jesus’ command to “love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you”. Jesus corrected those who spoke out against him but he also forgave them. We shouldn’t accept whatever anyone says about God. I would attempt to tell them why I think my faith is right and that would be it. I’m not into thumping my Bible over peoples’ heads. Too many have been turned away from God by using these condemning tactics. Jesus showed love and compassion not condemnation; the only caveat being those leaders in the Sanhedrin.

I have to differ with you on a few points PsyOps.
Speaking against someones beliefs can be a condemnation of them. If their beliefs aren't straight with Scripture, the Scripture condemns them. It isn't me who does it, but they're still condemned.
And Jesus did NOT forgive those who spoke out against Him. He said they would die in their sin & unbelief. He does not forgive everyone; that's what the unpardonable sin is.
I would agree with you that "Bible thumping" isn't always pleasant but it does happen sometimes. It usually starts as a difference of opinion and many times it escalates to an argument. I wish it wouldn't, but sadly it does.
I've never heard of Jesus backing down from a good Scripture thumping opportunity. He stayed in there and gave it to them good. Jude 3 tells us to do the same when necessary.
If you look carefully at what the Bible says, Jesus only condemned those who were perishing because He knew they wouldn't repent. The others He had compassion on. Those who scoff at the Bible are going to hear the truth from me. Nicely at first but sternly if they persist. Whether the change or not is up to them.
Those "condemnation tactics" are usually not necessary with a reasonable person. You've seen it here. I'll speak against something that I believe is incorrect and in come the name callers and scoffers. It happens.

[libby]

We who have the truth are required to point out the false teachings of anyone.

I'll speak against something that I believe is incorrect and in come the name callers and scoffers.

IT, The point I'm making goes right along with PsyOps. People are supposed to want to convert when they see our hope, our joy and our love. Approach/style plays a significant role in correction, too. Scripture also tells us that Jesus knew what (insert name here) was thinking. We do not have that power, so any condemnation He made was right on target, perfect. Because we are not God, we risk making mistakes when we assume the "why" of someone's doubt or disbelief, and their degree of culpability.
I tell you to admonish Bible Christians because, ideally, they accept the same foundation for Truth that you do. For me, someone who claims Catholicism yet is pro-choice needs it pointed out that they must choose one or the other.

[PsyOps]

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

I have to differ with you on a few points PsyOps.
Speaking against someones beliefs can be a condemnation of them. If their beliefs aren't straight with Scripture, the Scripture condemns them. It isn't me who does it, but they're still condemned.
And Jesus did NOT forgive those who spoke out against Him. He said they would die in their sin & unbelief. He does not forgive everyone; that's what the unpardonable sin is.
I would agree with you that "Bible thumping" isn't always pleasant but it does happen sometimes. It usually starts as a difference of opinion and many times it escalates to an argument. I wish it wouldn't, but sadly it does.
I've never heard of Jesus backing down from a good Scripture thumping opportunity. He stayed in there and gave it to them good. Jude 3 tells us to do the same when necessary.
If you look carefully at what the Bible says, Jesus only condemned those who were perishing because He knew they wouldn't repent. The others He had compassion on. Those who scoff at the Bible are going to hear the truth from me. Nicely at first but sternly if they persist. Whether the change or not is up to them.
Those "condemnation tactics" are usually not necessary with a reasonable person. You've seen it here. I'll speak against something that I believe is incorrect and in come the name callers and scoffers. It happens.

Obviously I haven’t been clear. The term condemn that I am using is to condemn someone to eternal damnation. In other words telling someone they are going to hell if they don’t believe.

When Jesus was crucified he said “Forgive them father, for they know not what they do”. Although Christ condemned the act of crucifying him, he forgave them because they were completely ignorant of the spiritual implications of the act. Jesus also said: “… I’ve come not to condemn the world, but to save the world” (John 12:47). He did say that we condemn ourselves by not accepting Him and, by our own choice, subject ourselves to God’s judgment.

I’m not suggesting we shouldn’t use the Bible to convey the message. I’m just not one to throw it in someone’s face while telling them they are going to hell if they don’t believe in it. When the rich man approached Jesus and asked how to get into heaven Jesus gave him His answer. When the rich man rejected it, Jesus didn’t go chasing him down, with a more stern tone. He simply said to others how hard it is for a rich man to enter into heaven and left it at that.

[ItalianScallion (Premo)]

Originally Posted by PsyOps

In other words telling someone they are going to hell if they don’t believe.

I’m not suggesting we shouldn’t use the Bible to convey the message. I’m just not one to throw it in someone’s face while telling them they are going to hell if they don’t believe in it. When the rich man approached Jesus and asked how to get into heaven Jesus gave him His answer. When the rich man rejected it, Jesus didn’t go chasing him down, with a more stern tone. He simply said to others how hard it is for a rich man to enter into heaven and left it at that.

I see what you're saying but how is that any different than what Jesus said?
"telling someone they're going to hell if they don't believe" is exactly what He did at times and is the truth. It's somewhat harsh but it's still the truth. Why would anyone not use that if it applies? I would, if the "love & forgiveness" method didn't work. He made it clear that unbelievers will not enter the kingdom of Heaven and told them lots about hell. John 8 from verse 12 to the end is one example.
I know a few people that have often told me that they are scared to death of the thought of going to hell. They don't talk much about God's love (that I conveyed to them) so, if being scared of hell helps them come to Christ, I'm all for it. I don't know where people get the notion that Christians always have to be soft and passive. When Jesus returns, we will all see a side of Him that we've never seen and it won't be pretty this time.
And I understand about the rich young ruler but he walked away, not Jesus. If someone walks away from me in a conversation or on this forum, I don't go chasing him either but I will tell people what awaits them (unlike Oprah's lie about "many ways to Heaven").