Morals are natural

[PsyOps]

Originally Posted by Nucklesack

Once again, i'm not debating whether God gave the animals Morals, this is an example of Morals without Religion (2 different things)

Gotcha. Mostly certainly we can have morals without religion. But, from my point of view the same God gave us both. That's where we part ways.

[This_person]

Originally Posted by Nucklesack

And yet the animals in the article developed Morals without the fear of Going to Hell to drive them.

How do you know that?

And, even if true, what did drive them? Are their morals consistent, regardless of their condition, or are they like atheists whose morals have no foundation and vary based on the given conditions?

[Nucklesack]

Originally Posted by PsyOps

Gotcha. Mostly certainly we can have morals without religion. But, from my point of view the same God gave us both. That's where we part ways.

No problm

[PsyOps]

Originally Posted by Nucklesack

No problem

:fixed: ..............

[PsyOps]

Originally Posted by This_person

... like atheists whose morals have no foundation and vary based on the given conditions[/b]?

I'm not sure that's completely fair. I think you can find, even within the Christian faith that certain morals vary from one denomination to the next. As an example:

I knew a guy whose church believed it was sinful to use musical instruments to worhsip God. The only pure music to worship God was the human voice. instruments were created by man, the voice by God.

Yet, they believed it was okay to listen to music by bands that were considered to be Satin Worshipping. My friend and I had this big discussion about it because he liked to listen to bands like Metallica, Slayer, Ozzy Osborne, etc… (DISCLAIMER ALERT: I know those guys probably don’t worship Satan, but their music has been known to be used by Satan Worshipers). Because of their belief, it was okay to listen to music like that as long as it wasn’t used to worship God. It was a twisted kind of thinking.

Now, I know you will contend whether these folks are really Christians or not but they believe they are. Many people within the Catholic faith believe if you are not Catholic you are going to hell. Some denominations believe it’s okay to use birth control, others don’t. Some even think it’s okay to have an abortion… Drinking… I could go on and on.

Fact of the matter is, there really isn’t any real consistency across the Christian faith regarding morals. Morals, to me, really comes down to the individual. I don’t even think you will find within the same denomination every person having the same morals. Even though their spoken foundation is Christ and his teachings, each person will still behave differently morally.

[foodcritic]

Originally Posted by PsyOps

I'm not sure that's completely fair. I think you can find, even within the Christian faith that certain morals vary from one denomination to the next. As an example:

I knew a guy whose church believed it was sinful to use musical instruments to worhsip God. The only pure music to worship God was the human voice. instruments were created by man, the voice by God.

Yet, they believed it was okay to listen to music by bands that were considered to be Satin Worshipping. My friend and I had this big discussion about it because he liked to listen to bands like Metallica, Slayer, Ozzy Osborne, etc… (DISCLAIMER ALERT: I know those guys probably don’t worship Satan, but their music has been known to be used by Satan Worshipers). Because of their belief, it was okay to listen to music like that as long as it wasn’t used to worship God. It was a twisted kind of thinking.

Now, I know you will contend whether these folks are really Christians or not but they believe they are. Many people within the Catholic faith believe if you are not Catholic you are going to hell. Some denominations believe it’s okay to use birth control, others don’t. Some even think it’s okay to have an abortion… Drinking… I could go on and on.

Fact of the matter is, there really isn’t any real consistency across the Christian faith regarding morals. Morals, to me, really comes down to the individual. I don’t even think you will find within the same denomination every person having the same morals. Even though their spoken foundation is Christ and his teachings, each person will still behave differently morally.

Are you talking about preferences or morals.. It sounds to me like you are talking about preferences. It's Ok to like different styles of music for example.

It's another story if the "church" across the street teaches virgin sacrifice and throwing babies in to the fire of Molech for example.

[PsyOps]

Originally Posted by foodcritic

Are you talking about preferences or morals.. It sounds to me like you are talking about preferences. It's Ok to like different styles of music for example.

It's another story if the "church" across the street teaches virgin sacrifice and throwing babies in to the fire of Molech for example.

Don't we make our preferences based on our morals? I would say our preferences are a reflection of our morals. But I wouldn't say abortion is necessarily a preference. Where one group of people feel, on a moral standpoint, it’s okay where others don’t. And this is the case even within the Christian Church.

[This_person]

Originally Posted by PsyOps

I'm not sure that's completely fair. I think you can find, even within the Christian faith that certain morals vary from one denomination to the next. As an example:

I knew a guy whose church believed it was sinful to use musical instruments to worhsip God. The only pure music to worship God was the human voice. instruments were created by man, the voice by God.

Yet, they believed it was okay to listen to music by bands that were considered to be Satin Worshipping. My friend and I had this big discussion about it because he liked to listen to bands like Metallica, Slayer, Ozzy Osborne, etc… (DISCLAIMER ALERT: I know those guys probably don’t worship Satan, but their music has been known to be used by Satan Worshipers). Because of their belief, it was okay to listen to music like that as long as it wasn’t used to worship God. It was a twisted kind of thinking.

Now, I know you will contend whether these folks are really Christians or not but they believe they are. Many people within the Catholic faith believe if you are not Catholic you are going to hell. Some denominations believe it’s okay to use birth control, others don’t. Some even think it’s okay to have an abortion… Drinking… I could go on and on.

Fact of the matter is, there really isn’t any real consistency across the Christian faith regarding morals. Morals, to me, really comes down to the individual. I don’t even think you will find within the same denomination every person having the same morals. Even though their spoken foundation is Christ and his teachings, each person will still behave differently morally.

I addressed this by discussing that different religions have different moral standards, but the concept is that the morals are standard within the religion.

Now, I fully agree with what you say that, even within a particular religion/denomination of that religion there are variances with how people interpret the religion. But, that doesn't change the fact that even the individual who understands it differently than another person still has a standard they're going by.

What is the atheist's standard?

[Larry Gude (Premo)]

Originally Posted by This_person

What is the atheist's standard?

Speaking for the agnostics, mine are "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" just so long as mine and yours don't unreasonably limit one another's.

And THERE is where religions, organizations, come in, making the judgment of what is and is not reasonable.

[This_person]

Originally Posted by Larry Gude

Speaking for the agnostics, mine are "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" just so long as mine and yours don't unreasonably limit one another's.

And THERE is where religions, organizations, come in, making the judgment of what is and is not reasonable.

that's a pretty broad standard.

So, the theft of a cookie, as described previously, would not be "wrong", as a cookie could not reasonably be construed as a significant impact on the victim's well-being?

However, I generally agree with you belief that any particular religion should not be the same as the secular law of the land. For some things, there would be an obvious cross over - murder is wrong whether it's in the ten commandments or not, but denial of eating meat on Fridays would be a particular group's deal, not the law.