Why the Bible is true

[foodcritic]

Take 6 mins to listen to Ravi Zacharias speak on the reliability of the bible!


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[glitch]

[Nucklesack]

Originally Posted by foodcritic

Take 6 mins to listen to Ravi Zacharias speak on the reliability of the bible!


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Does he explain what prophecies Jesus fullfilled, from the Old Testament (the roadmap that details the Messiah), to show he is the Saviour?

[VoteJP]

Originally Posted by Nucklesack

Does he explain what prophecies Jesus fullfilled, from the Old Testament (the roadmap that details the Messiah), to show he is the Saviour?

[foodcritic]

Originally Posted by Nucklesack

Does he explain what prophecies Jesus fullfilled, from the Old Testament (the roadmap that details the Messiah), to show he is the Saviour?

Maybe that responsibility falls on the listener........

[ItalianScallion (Premo)]

Originally Posted by Nucklesack

Does he explain what prophecies Jesus fullfilled, from the Old Testament (the roadmap that details the Messiah), to show he is the Saviour?

Prophecies Fulfilled by Jesus

Be the seed of a woman who would bruise the head of the serpent
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Gen 3:15
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Gal 4:4, 1Jn 3:8
Be descendant of Abraham
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Gen 12:3
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Matt 1:1, Acts 3:25, Acts 18:18, Acts 22:18, Gal 3:16
Be descendant of Isaac
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Gen 17:19, Gen 21:12
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Matt 1:2, Luke 3:34, Heb 11:17-19
Be descendant of Jacob
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Gen 28:14, Num 24:17, Num 19
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Matt 1:2, Luke 3:24, Rev 22:16
Be descendant from the tribe of Judah
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Gen 49:10
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Luke 3:33, Matt 1:2-3, Heb 7:14
Be descendant of David and heir to his throne
Prophecy in the Old Testament: 2Sa 7:12-13, Isa 9:6-7, Isa 11:1-5, Jer 23:5
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Matt 1:1,6, Luke 1:32, Acts 11:23, Rom 1:4
Be anointed and eternal
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Ps 45:6-7, Ps 102:25-27, Mic 5:1-2
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Heb 1:8-12, John 8:58, John 11:14, Eph 1:3-14, Col 1:15-19, Rev 5:11
Be anointed with the Spirit of God
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Isa 11:2, Isa 61:1, Ps 45:7-8
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Matt 3:16
Be born in Bethlehem
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Mic 5:1-2
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Matt 2:1, Luke 2:4-7
Be born at a specific time
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Dan 9:25
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Luke 2:1-2
Be born of a virgin
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Isa 7:14
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Matt 1:18, 2:1, Luke 1:26-27, Luke 1:30-35
Slaughter of children
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Jer 31:15
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Matt 2:16-18
Flight to Egypt
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Hos 11:1
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Matt 2:14-15
The way prepared
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Isa 40:3-5
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Luke 3:3-6
Messiah Preceded by a forerunner
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Mal 3:1
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Luke 7:24,27
Messiah Preceded by Elijah
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Mal 4:5-6
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Matt 11:13-14
Messiah Declared the Son of God
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Ps 2:7, Prov 30:4
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Matt 3:17, Luke 1:32
Would have a ministry in healing
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Isa 35:5-6, Isa 42:18
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Matt 11:5 and many healings in all the gospel accounts
Galilean ministry
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Isa 8:22-9:1-2, Isa 9:1-2
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Matt 4:12-16
Speaks in parables
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Ps 78:2-4
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Matt 13:34-35
Be a prophet
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Deut 18:15, Deut 18
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Acts 3:20,22
Have God's own name applied to him
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Isa 9:5-7, Jer 23:5-6
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Rom 10:9, Phil 2:9-11
To bind up the brokenhearted
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Isa 61:1-2
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Luke 4:18-19
Rejected by His own people, the Jews
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Isa 53:3, Isa 63:3, Ps 69:8-9
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Mark 6:3, Luke 23:18, John 1:11, John 7:3-5
Be adored by great persons
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Ps 72:10-11
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Matt 2:1-11
Priest after order of Melchizedek
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Ps 110:4
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Heb 5:5-6
Triumphal entry into Jerusalem
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Zech 9:9
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Mark 11:7,9,11
Adored by infants
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Ps 8:2
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Matt 21:15-16
Not believed
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Isa 53:1
Fulfillment in the New Testament: John 12:37-38
Betrayed by a close friend
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Ps 41:9, Ps 55:12-15
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Matt 26:21-25, Matt 26:47-50, Luke 22:47-48, John 13:18-21, Acts 1:16-18
Betrayed for30 pieces of silver
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Zech 11:12
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Matt 26:14-15
Accused by false witnesses
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Ps 35:11
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Mark 14:57-58
Silent to accusations
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Isa 53:7
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Mark 15:4-5
Spat on and struck
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Isa 50:6
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Matt 26:67, Matt 27:26,30
Hated without cause
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Isa 49:7, Ps 35:19, Ps 69:4-5
Fulfillment in the New Testament: John 7:48, John 15:24-25
Vicarious sacrifice
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Isa 53:5
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Rom. 5:6,8
Crucified with criminals
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Isa 53:12
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Mark 15:27,28
Pierced through hands and feet
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Ps 22:16-17, Zech 12:10
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Matt 17:35, Luke 24:39. John 19:18&34-37, John 20:27,35, Rev 1:7
Sneered and mocked
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Ps 22:7-8
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Matt 27:31 & 39-44, Mark 15:29-32, Luke 23:35
Was reproached
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Ps 69:9
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Rom. 15:3
Prayed for enemies
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Ps 109:4
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Luke 23:34
Gambled for His clothing
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Ps 22:17-18
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Matt 27:35-36
Forsaken by God
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Ps 22:1
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Matt 27:46
No bones broken
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Ex 12:46, Ps 34:20
Fulfillment in the New Testament: John 19:32-36
His side pierced
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Zech 12:10
Fulfillment in the New Testament: John 19:34
Buried with the rich
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Isa 53:9
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Matt 27:57-60
To be resurrected
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Ps 16:10, Ps 49:15
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Mark 16:6-7
His ascension to God's right hand
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Ps 16:11, Ps 68:18, Ps 110:1
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Mark 16:19, Luke 24:51, Acts 1:9-11, 7:55, 1Cor 15:4, Eph 4:8

[VoteJP]

Trying to claim that the Bible proves itself as true, and that God is being real, based on the Bible proving the Bible as true is a big reason why so many honest people reject that claim and then reject the Bible and reject God too.

That pretentious claim runs honest people away from the truths of the Bible, because the Bible proving itself means nothing.

The real proof of God is found outside of the Bible, like experiencing ghost and spirits and miracles.

Once a person knows about the "Intelligent Design" then one can go to the Bible to find out particulars to then take outside of the Bible.

The Preacher in the original post did not adequately answer the question given to him from that audience.

[Nucklesack]

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

Prophecies Fulfilled by Jesus

First i asked what Prophecies of the Old Testament did Jesus fullfill? You are relying upon what the New Testament claims are Old Testament messianic prophecies, but that doesn't actually make them Old Testament messianic prophecies.

The Old Testament, written for/to the Jews, detailed the requirements the Messiah would have to fullfill, to become the Jewish Saviour. Jews and Others argue that Christians fabricated the New Testament to modify requirements so that a man, possibly a Prophet at best, met requirements that did not apply or were not requirements of the Messiah.

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

Be the seed of a woman who would bruise the head of the serpent
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Gen 3:15
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Gal 4:4, 1Jn 3:8

Nebulous, i would expect the Saviour to defeat Satan. Does not mean a man name Jesus was this saviour.

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

Be descendant of Abraham
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Gen 12:3
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Matt 1:1, Acts 3:25, Acts 18:18, Acts 22:18, Gal 3:16

Nebulous, what about all the other descendants of Abraham?

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

Be descendant of Isaac
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Gen 17:19, Gen 21:12
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Matt 1:2, Luke 3:34, Heb 11:17-19

Nebulous, what about all the other descendants of Isaac?

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

Be descendant of Jacob
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Gen 28:14, Num 24:17, Num 19
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Matt 1:2, Luke 3:24, Rev 22:16

Nebulous, what about all the other descendants of Jacob?

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

Be descendant from the tribe of Judah
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Gen 49:10
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Luke 3:33, Matt 1:2-3, Heb 7:14

Nebulous, what about all the other descendants of Judah?

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

Be descendant of David and heir to his throne
Prophecy in the Old Testament: 2Sa 7:12-13, Isa 9:6-7, Isa 11:1-5, Jer 23:5
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Matt 1:1,6, Luke 1:32, Acts 11:23, Rom 1:4

Hmm interesting, you point to David, but dont mention that Ben Yosef is to come before Ben David

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

Be anointed and eternal
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Ps 45:6-7, Ps 102:25-27, Mic 5:1-2
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Heb 1:8-12, John 8:58, John 11:14, Eph 1:3-14, Col 1:15-19, Rev 5:11

Nebulous, the Saviour is supposed to be anointed and eternal, well yeah, but that doesnt mean the man Jesus was this person. What did Jesus fullfill, from the Old Testament to meet this requirement?

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

Be anointed with the Spirit of God
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Isa 11:2, Isa 61:1, Ps 45:7-8
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Matt 3:16

Nebulous, The savior should be anointed with the spirit of God, as expected, but what did Jesus fullfill from the Old Testament to meet this requirement?

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

Be born in Bethlehem
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Mic 5:1-2
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Matt 2:1, Luke 2:4-7

Wow Jesus was the only person born in Bethlehem?

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

Be born at a specific time
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Dan 9:25
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Luke 2:1-2

And without pointing to the New Testament how did Jesus fullfill this? Using your book as proof of your proof is illogical

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

Be born of a virgin
Prophecy in the Old Testament: Isa 7:14
Fulfillment in the New Testament: Matt 1:18, 2:1, Luke 1:26-27, Luke 1:30-35

That is actually not an Old Testament requirement. The Jews, whom the Old Testament details the Messiah too, expect the Messiah to be from the line of David (after Ben Yosef). Cant be from David if your Father is God.

Jews rebut Isiah 7:14 and make the claim if Jesus was born a virgin he doesnt fullfill Isiah 7:14 since their undoctored Bible states Young Maiden and not Virginal (Biblical scholars acknowledge the Christian misinterpretation as a means to make Jesus more palatable to Pagans, which held a Viriginal Birth belief) Jewish interpreters state the proper name for virgin is hlwtb Bethuwlah not Almah the word used in Isaiah 7:14.

But i'll give you a bone and allow that Isiah 7:14 may have stated a Virgin birth, it does not pertain to Jesus since the events in Isiah 7:14 are discussing an event that occured 700 years before Jesus' time.

I'll let you have the rest i dont feel like parsing any more.

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

Prophecy in the Old Testament:
Fulfillment in the New Testament:

From an earlier discussion :

There will be a period of about seven years of terrible famines and other troubles. The land of Israel will at that time be under Non-Jewish control, and a leader of the tribe of Ephraim, (this is Yosef) will arise to lead militarily against these nations who control Jerusalem. (hasnt occured yet) He will be successful, but after his initial victory he will die in battle. This will cause a great mourning and many will lose faith. At that time (still within the seven years) the Moshiach Ben David will be revealed (after the fall of Yosef, David will come, within the 7 years of terrible times. If Jesus was Yosef, why didnt David come?), he shall finish the battle. After which, he will resurrect all the dead, starting with the Moshiach Ben Yosef. Both of them will go up to Mount Zion to fulfill the prophecy in Ovadiah verse 21: "And the saviors (plural - both Messiahs) shall go up onto Mount Tzion and judge Mount Esav, and the kingdom will be for Hashem." There is the fulfillment of ALL the major prophesies like an end to war and a world at peace with the Jewish people in a restored Jerusalem with the third Temple.

The following points summarize this issue and are agreed to in all the Midrashim that deal with the Moshiach ben Yosef and the Moshiach ben Dovid.

• They are two different people from two different tribal families. Jesus can not be both Yosef and David
• They live at the same time. Unfullfilled prophecy
• Moshiach ben Yosef never takes the throne nor is he entitled to.
• Moshiach ben Yosef is a warrior (Moshiach ben Dovid would also appear to be) Unfullfilled prophecy
• Moshiach ben Yosef will be killed in BATTLE[15] and will be the first to be raised from the dead by Moshiach ben Dovid. (Within the 7 year timeline, has not happened. Another unfullfilled prophecy)
• The period of time from when Moshiach ben Yosef first comes into prominence until he is resurrected after the Moshiach ben Dovid comes to his throne is very short, the longest period is under two years. (Unfullfilled prophecy)
• The basic chronology of events is that there is a seven-year period. It starts with continually problems, it starts to improve and then in the sixth year it gets worse again. In the seventh year there are great wars in which the Moshiach ben Yosef is first successful and then he is killed in that later part of the year. Many Jewish people will become depressed and fall away. At the end of the seven years Moshiach ben Dovid comes and finishes the job and there comes the resurrection of the dead. (This is what Judaism is still waiting for the Messiah to fullfill)

Here are some definitive ones, nothing nebulous about it, that the Jews are still waiting for the True Saviour to fullfill. Christian hang onto a Second Coming for him to fullfill these, but this is a New Testament construct, there is nothing in the Old Testament that points to a Second Coming. The Old Testament expects and requires the Saviour to fullfill these, and still waits for this to occur.

• The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)
• Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
• The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
• He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chronicles 22:8-10, 2 Chronicles 7:18)
• The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
• Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
• Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
• He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
• All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
• Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
• There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
• All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
• The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
• He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
• Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
• The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
• The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
• Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
• The Temple will be rebuilt resuming many of the suspended mitzvot (Ezekiel 40)
• He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)
• Jews will know the Torah without study (Jeremiah 31:33)
• He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
• He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)

[VoteJP]

Originally Posted by Nucklesack

Does he explain what prophecies Jesus fulfilled, from the Old Testament (the road map that details the Messiah), to show he is the Saviour?

I had thought you were just making-fun or mocking the original post or else I never would have posted that laughing icon if I had known you were being very serious and sincere.

So I offer you my own sincerest of apologies to you.

[foodcritic]

Originally Posted by VoteJP

Trying to claim that the Bible proves itself as true, and that God is being real, based on the Bible proving the Bible as true is a big reason why so many honest people reject that claim and then reject the Bible and reject God too.

That pretentious claim runs honest people away from the truths of the Bible, because the Bible proving itself means nothing.

The real proof of God is found outside of the Bible, like experiencing ghost and spirits and miracles.

Once a person knows about the "Intelligent Design" then one can go to the Bible to find out particulars to then take outside of the Bible.

The Preacher in the original post did not adequately answer the question given to him from that audience.

You miss most of the point. God is found outside the bible. The bible offers EVIDENCE of God's existence for a whole host of reason already mentioned.
It is unlikely to know about God with out the bible.