Discussion of End times.. Are these the last days

[foodcritic]

[QUOTE=ItalianScallion;4116993]

Foodcritic, you missed what I said. I said Matthew 24 v 15-28 & 34 speaks of the temple destruction. It is a continuation of Matthew 23. Why would Jesus speak to the disciples about the end of the world before the end of the temple age? And why would Jesus only mention "those is Judah fleeing to the mountains"?
Look at Matthew 24 v 2: Jesus was walking with the disciples from the temple when they called His attention to the temple buildings and He said: "Do you see all these things?...not one stone will be left on another..." He was talking about the coming destruction of that very temple. He continued from Matthew 23 when He said to the Jews: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem...look, your house is left to you desolate." I do believe that there is some ambiguity in some of these verses.

I don't disagree with your conclusion here. Jesus was predicting the destruction of the temple. When Jesus speaks about the conditions of our being gathered together= the rapture. You not suggesting that took place? It implies that the temple, yes destroyed, will again be rebuilt. All these things are conditional on the list of things that Jesus tells them will happen up to the rapture including the cosmic disturbances. Which did not occur at the AD 70.

Antiochus Epiphanes IV easily fits the bill for the "abomination that causes desolation" spoken of by Daniel & Jesus. Look at some of the things he did to the Jews and their temple: The pigs blood on their altar, sexual perversions with men, lewd acts with his mother and the placing of a statue of himself inside the temple IS "the abomination that causes desolation standing where it doesn't belong".

Yes sort of. Daniel yes. Jesus is speaking of a future event.

The tribulation spoken of in v 21 was spoken of in Isaiah 13 v 9. This is a prophetic statement used a couple of times to announce a coming judgment. Also in Rev 6, Daniel 9v12, Ezekiel 5v9 & Exodus 11v6.

agreed

And why would the disciples ever think for a moment that Jesus meant, in verse 34, the generation living at the end of the world or the entire human race when, in actuality, He meant the generation that walked when He walked on earth? Otherwise, Jesus mis-spoke and the world should have ended with the generation of His day. Thanks to false teachers like Tim LaHaye and his Left Behind series, many people today are truly confused about the end of the world but don't realize it.

The translation is poor.

Even so when you see all these things, you know that it[d]is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Compared to this:

That THE generation that see's these things will certainly not pass away.

The difference is Jesus telling them that the generation that sees the signs (future event in that 7yr period) will not pass away.

Also look in Revelation about the mark (666). Nero Caesar's name fits this easily if you've heard of Gematria or Isopsephism. He massacred thousands of Christians including Paul & Peter. Everyone thinks the mark is something we're going to have to take to buy and sell if we're alive at the end of the world. The mark of the beast is nothing more than a person's associating themselves with the devil instead of Jesus.

I prefer the more literal reading. Technology is now here to accomplish this. It is about association but it has a literal consequence for believers.

Rev 13:16He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

Now about the rapture, Zguy, I agree with you. People don't realize that the pre-tribulation rapture theory is a very recent invention. I think it came about in the early 1900's. While I do believe in the rapture spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4, I do not believe in a pre tribulational one. I believe that people will be raptured when Christ comes back on the last day.

I think most pre-trib believe we will be raptured when Christ comes back. They just have the timing wrong.

I agree, I don't agree with the pre-trib. What I am suggesting is that the church will go thru the great tribulation (not wrath) prior to her rapture. I think this is born out in the bible. I am currently reading The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Chruch by Marvin Rosenthal a good resource.

[ItalianScallion (Premo)]

Originally Posted by foodcritic

...Jesus speaks about the conditions of our being gathered together= the rapture. You not suggesting that took place?

No, the rapture hasn't happened yet; we're still here aren't we?

Originally Posted by foodcritic

I think most pre-trib believe we will be raptured when Christ comes back. They just have the timing wrong. I don't agree with the pre-trib. What I am suggesting is that the church will go thru the great tribulation (not wrath) prior to her rapture. I think this is born out in the bible. I am currently reading The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Chruch by Marvin Rosenthal a good resource.

Agreed, but my point is that LaHaye doesn't believe or teach that. He contends that Jesus will return 2 more times.
If you want a really good book, read Hank Hanegraaff's "The Apocalypse Code". It's really well done and offers a lot of insight. A bit deep for my simple mind but well done none the less.

[foodcritic]

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

No, the rapture hasn't happened yet; we're still here aren't we?

Agreed, but my point is that LaHaye doesn't believe or teach that. He contends that Jesus will return 2 more times.
If you want a really good book, read Hank Hanegraaff's "The Apocalypse Code". It's really well done and offers a lot of insight. A bit deep for my simple mind but well done none the less.

I don't agree with La Haye either. I like Hanegraff. I don't know his end time perspective.

What is it that you think will happen?

[PsyOps (Premo)]

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

we're still here aren't we?

Prove it!

[PsyOps (Premo)]

Originally Posted by foodcritic

What is it that you think will happen?

How can we, in the flesh, possibly understand what is going to happen? It will be a spiritual event that is not possible to describe in the flesh.

[D-35]

Be aware that satanic evil DOES exist.

Since the Dark Ages (We're still there), every major beautiful Christian ediface and shrine has been corrupted by satanic forces from the outset and the setting of their cornerstones.

Take the time to drill down through the layers of evil at theis website: Start at Denver's Itnl Airport --Then move on to the other "sanctified" Christian shrines...Chilling.

Sinister Sites - The Denver International Airport | The Vigilant Citizen

[foodcritic]

Originally Posted by PsyOps

How can we, in the flesh, possibly understand what is going to happen? It will be a spiritual event that is not possible to describe in the flesh.

I find this just an easy answer without really putting any effort in to the discussion OR in to God's revelation to us .....the bible. The book that helps us understand who God is and explains much of life to us.

[ItalianScallion (Premo)]

Originally Posted by foodcritic

I don't agree with La Haye either. I like Hanegraff. I don't know his end time perspective.
What is it that you think will happen?

As I said earlier, there will be (is happening now) a big push for world conquest; a one world leader (the UN/Obama fits in), one religion trying to take over (Islam) and a bunch of lost fools following the wrong Savior (antichrist/beast).
I have no fear or doubt that something big might happen in December 2012 while Obama is in charge (imagine that!) but whatever happens, I still rest in the fact that it has ALL been predicted and my God will handle it magnificently. When He thinks enough is enough, He will come down to earth for the last time and put an end to evil forever. I don't know all the particulars, but Revelation gives us a good idea that it won't be pretty for: Soros, Obama, Pelosi, etc., and many on this very site.

Originally Posted by PsyOps

Prove it!

Uh, the Bible says so???

Originally Posted by PsyOps

How can we, in the flesh, possibly understand what is going to happen? It will be a spiritual event that is not possible to describe in the flesh.

We're not expected to understand it completely but we can get a sense of when and how it will happen from the Bible. The MOST important part is to be ready to meet the Lord. Nothing else matters even if we did know when and how it will come about. Funny; I had no fear of the Y2K event but, with the world the way it is today, I really feel that we might be here for the fireworks if you get my drift...

Originally Posted by D-35

Be aware that satanic evil DOES exist.
Since the Dark Ages (We're still there), every major beautiful Christian ediface and shrine has been corrupted by satanic forces from the outset and the setting of their cornerstones.

No doubt evil is positioning itself for one big final push but I don't know about "every...shrine being corrupted". A bit extreme, ya think?

[Zguy28]

Originally Posted by foodcritic

I don't agree with La Haye either.

That's good to hear.

I like Hanegraff. I don't know his end time perspective.

Hank Hannegraff is a Partial Preterist and Postmillenialist.

He believes everything in Revelation has been fulfilled up to the middle of Chapter 20 before 70AD and that we are in the Millennial Kingdom now (I agree with this btw) and that when it ends Christ will come back and that's it.

I must admit that I find Partial Preterism compelling.

[kermitt]

foodcritic have you read the book of Enoch?