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[VoteJP]

Originally Posted by Marie

" When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible " (Ref: Ahmad Ibn Naqib al-Misri, The Reliance of the Traveller, translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller , Amana publications, 1997, section r8.2, page 745).

Imam Ghazali does not say this without knowledge. He is basing his fatwa on the words and examples of the Prophet himself.
In one hadith we read that the prophet calls upon his followers to assassinate Ka’b ibn Ashraf, the chief of a Jewish tribe who was wary of Muhammad and tells them it is okay to tell a lie to deceive him. Bukhari, Volume 5, #369

The fact is that Muslims feel no pang of conscience to lie if that lie is said for Allah’s sake and his religion. If the lie is said for a good cause it is okay.

That does NOT come from the Quran, and there is a huge difference in such claims coming from some Muslim Cleric but not from the Holy Quran.

Of course, IMO, a Muslim lying to some Christian infidel in some cases seems logical and sensible to me even if it is technically a sin.

In example: Christians today claim it is okay to attack and occupy and kill Muslims in Iraq and in Afghanistan when it is NOT okay, and leaving aside the Christian Crusades and the injustices to Palestine, then we still have Christians that justify slavery and racial prejudice, and Christians that support the torture of Muslim prisoners, so if then a Muslim does lie to such Christian infidels under such circumstances then I do not count that as some big sin for the Muslims.

Christians are told that war and murders and enslavement and torture are okay to do to Muslims, but not all of us as Christians believe or do those lies, therefore even if Muslims are told they can lie in some cases then that does not mean they actually do it.

So I say it is wrong to accuse Muslims or Christians of any wrongdoing based on the wrong teachings of their leaders or their Priest.

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[Marie]

By the way these verese are directed at us! Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter. These verses are mostly open-ended, meaning that the historical context is not embedded within the surrounding text (as are nearly all of the Old Testament verses of violence).

The Qur'an: Qur'an (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah." There is a good case to be made that the textual context of this particular passage is defensive war, even if the historical context was not. However, there are also two worrisome pieces to these verse. The first is that the killing of others is authorized in the event of "persecution" (a qualification that is ambiguous at best). The second is that fighting may persist until "religion is for Allah." The example set by Muhammad is not reassuring. Qur'an (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things." Qur'an (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding caravans with this verse. Qur'an (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help." Qur'an (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah'). Qur'an (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle, as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. Here is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers. Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks." Qur'an (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement" Qur'an (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle. Qur'an (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end." Qur'an (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy." Qur'an (9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant." The "striving" spoken of here is Jihad. Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." "People of the Book" refers to Christians and Jews. This was one of the final "revelations" from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad's companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in just the next 100 years. Islam is intended to dominate all other people and faiths. Qur'an (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!" Qur'an (9:41) - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew." See also the verse that follows (9:42) - "If there had been immediate gain (in sight), and the journey easy, they would (all) without doubt have followed thee, but the distance was long, (and weighed) on them" This contradicts the myth that Muslims are to fight only in self-defense, since the wording implies that battle will be waged a long distance from home (in another country and on Christian soil, in this case, according to the historians). Qur'an (9:73) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination." Dehumanizing those who reject Islam, by reminding Muslims that they are merely firewood for Hell, makes it easier to justify slaughter. It also explains why today's devout Muslims have little regard for those outside the faith. Qur'an (21:44) - "We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?" Qur'an (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves" Islam is not about treating everyone equally. There are two very distinct standards that are applied based on religious status. TheReligionofPeace - Islam: Verses of Violence

[VoteJP]

Marie,

it is perfectly okay for Muslim to fight back against Christians and God does not tell Muslims to surrender to violent attacks.

The Muslims still seek peace first and foremost and that makes Islam the religion of peace.

So long as you are hostile to them (or to anyone) then they will be hostile back at ya.

I am a Christian but the Muslims are not hostile to me, and I love Islam - both as an enemy and as a sister religion.


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[Marie]

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Interesting that the demons like Mohamed's teachings and responded better than those he taught!
Maybe thats why its called a doctrine of demons.

[Marie]

James once again you distort the truth!
Muslims that follow their own teachings (although not all do) start the attack by following their teaching of world dominance and hostile take over, England is a perfect example!

Calling yourself a Christian is a lie, to you have said many times you are not. You do not follow Christ teachings, in fact you blasphemy the word of God all the time with your scripture twisting. You refuse to submit to the word of God, You refuse to humble yourself and your will to Him. You do not pray, or recognize Jesus Christ as God. You do not fellowship with Christians, you do not partake of the sacraments, which is good or you would bring damnation on yourself. You have no desire to have a personal relationship with Christ and obey him and you do not worship Him corporately. Your as far from being a Christian as any Atheist and your eternity in hell is just as sad.

That said how can you honestly name the name of Christ, or even want to when you practice the religion of James Cusic which is based on works and self righteousness.

Please explain that!

[VoteJP]

Originally Posted by Marie

Muslims that follow their own teachings (although not all do) start the attack by following their teaching of world dominance and hostile take over, England is a perfect example!

World dominion is the hope and plan of all people. Everybody or at least every group would like to rule the world.

The Christians want to convert everyone, and the Christians plan on Jesus returning to take over the earth and to kill any non-Christians. The Hindus expect the entire world to convert to Hinduism and Muslims want humanity to "submit-to-God" as in Islam.

The Republican Party would be happy to rule the world so long as us Democrats do not beat them at it, and even a group like PETA/ would be happy to rule the world, and they all are trying to do so.

The Chinese wants to rule the world as does Rush Limbaugh, the Jews think they have a God given right to rule, and some day VoteJP might take over?

The USA gives the most hostile effort in world domination, and England has its own record of hostile world conquest that goes back a thousand years, so singling out the Muslims in some world take-over scheme is unfair.

Originally Posted by Marie

Calling yourself a Christian is a lie, to you have said many times you are not. You do not follow Christ teachings, in fact you blasphemy the word of God all the time with your scripture twisting. You refuse to submit to the word of God, You refuse to humble yourself and your will to Him. You do not pray, or recognize Jesus Christ as God. You do not fellowship with Christians, you do not partake of the sacraments, which is good or you would bring damnation on yourself. You have no desire to have a personal relationship with Christ and obey him and you do not worship Him corporately. Your as far from being a Christian as any Atheist and your eternity in hell is just as sad.

I do not see myself as lying or dishonest since I am always trying to be as sincerely truthful as I know how to be.

I am just not an "Orthodox" Christian, and the term "Christian" from the Bible was a derogatory name-calling that the early believers did not like being called because it was making an insult to the name of "Christ" as in Christ-ian or Christos, link HERE/

Like the followers of Billy Graham being called Graham-ians, and they do not like that.

So the way you and others define "Christian" is not the same as I define the word, and my definition is more accurate for me as your definition is more suited for your kind.

Originally Posted by Marie

That said how can you honestly name the name of Christ, or even want to when you practice the religion of James Cusick ...

That is what we mean by having "a personal relationship with God" because personal means me and only me with my Maker God and no one else because that is personal as in one person and one God.

Therefore the religion of J.P. Cusick is my personal relationship with God.

When you belong to a group and an "orthodoxy" then it is NOT "personal" because that is like a "group relationship" and not one person to God.

If some one is a Methodist or Catholic or Presbyterian or any religious group then they have a group relationship with God which interferes with their individual and personal relationship with God.

Every person in all of humanity has a personal relationship with God whether they know it or not, and so I make my personal relationship with God as far superior to any group, while you and Orthodox Christians make the group superior to your own personal relationship.

The group, as people call their Church, tells the people what to think and what to believe and what to do, but I say we must follow our own conscience foremost if one wants to do it right.

Our own personal conscience is the definer of our true relationship with God.

Originally Posted by Marie

... which is based on works and self righteousness.

Please explain that!

You might see it as "self-righteous" but it is just doing-right as-our-works which is what I preach and believe.

I base this on: 1 Corinthians 13, link HERE/ and I say the King James Version is better translated here in using the word as "charity" instead of the wrongly translated "love" because many people see love as a feeling and the word charity shows the word to mean an action as in righteous works and without charity - rightful works, then there is nothing.

Faith without works is dead, James 2:17-26, link HERE/


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[VoteJP]

So do you have no pity for the burning man?

I would fight any such God that would so harm anyone.


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[Marie]

So do you have no pity for the burning man?

I would fight any such God that would so harm anyone.
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I don't know if Armstrong purposely mislead people or not.
Hell has various degrees of torment. Those who know the truth and flat out reject it will suffer more than those that didn't know. False teachers will suffer even more probably the most.

As to you fighting God, you already are, madly trying to box with the wind. The futility would be funny, if it weren't so sad. Typically its a pet sin that you just cant give up for those that know the truth and so ardently reject it.
I have no idea what it is with you, all I can see is pride. Pride that demands to be its own god, and will not submit.

I wasn't going to bite on this, but one of these days the heart may soften and the question may be valid and in the meantime we keep praying for you, at least I do.

[VoteJP]

Originally Posted by Marie

Hell has various degrees of torment. Those who know the truth and flat out reject it will suffer more than those that didn't know. False teachers will suffer even more probably the most.

I know about the threats of Hell and I reject them and it completely.

Of course I also know those claims are not Biblically sound and they are wrong.

But what "various degrees" are you talking about?

Do you proclaim some "purgatory"? or some in a hotter Hell while others have it easier?


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[Marie]

Originally Posted by VoteJP

But what "various degrees" are you talking about?
Do you proclaim some "purgatory"? or some in a hotter Hell while others have it easier?
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No there is no such thing as purgatory, that is fiction.That concept is not in scripture but is derived from non canonical books that the Roman catholic church rejected until the Council of Trent (1546 AD). Prior to that it was rejected by the church.

Many people don't realize that there are degrees of punishment in hell, just as there are degrees of reward in heaven. That there are degrees of punishment is made evident by the following passages:

"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows." (Lk 12:47-48) "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you." (Mt 11:21-24)

According to the above passages (and also Jn 9:41, 15:22, 24), those with greater knowledge of morality and/or greater knowledge of God (via exposure to the Gospel, witnessing of miracles, etc.) will be held more accountable and consequently receive greater punishment than those who are ignorant through no fault of their own. Allowance is also made for children too young to be held responsible for their actions (Dt 1:27-28, 34-39).
It's not directly stated that one's degree of punishment is also based on the severity of one's sins, but this is implied in several places, such as Matthew 16:27. It's also implied by the different degrees of punishment given for different sins in the Mosaic Law. One could argue that every sin is sin against God and all sins therefore deserve severe punishment or death, and explain the differing punishments in the Law as God's leniency towards people's hardened hearts (e.g. Mt 19:8). Yet the notion that all sins merit the exact same punishment goes against humanity's instincts; therefore it's something we would need to be taught to us by God. One would think that God would therefore have taught this lesson in the Law by decreeing that all sins receive the same punishment (e.g. exile, or a large fine or sacrifice). Yet not only are there degrees of punishment that precisely match the crime (e.g. Ex 21:23-25), there is a command about not punishing those who deserved to be whipped with more lashes than is right (Dt 25:2-3).

Scripture also tells us that false teahers will suffer more and that even good teachers are held to a higher standard
Jas 3:1 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.

Romans 2:5-7: “But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; who will render to every man according to his works.”

If your truely interested check this out.
Apologetics Press - Are There Degrees of Punishment and Reward?