Jewish Group Re: Temple & Moshiach ben David

[Starman3000m]

(excerpt - bold, mine)

An Urgent Call From Gershon Salomon to All the Nations and People in the World

The complete redemption of Israel, the rebuilding of the Temple, and the coming of Messiah Ben David are the next stages in G d's end-time plans with Israel and the entire world.

Sixty-two years after the re-establishment of the State of Israel by the G d of Israel to be His end-time eternal kingdom, and after seven wars with Arab-Islamic nations who were backed by many nations worldwide that came to destroy Israel again and again, Israel is again facing pressure from every side with step-by-step preparations of the enemies of the G d and people of Israel to destroy the State of Israel through an apocalyptic war with nuclear weapons that were never used in the past. These nations refused to learn through their own previous experiences when the G d of Israel defeated them again and again and showed them that He is determined to rebuild His Holy Kingdom Israel in the Promised Land that He gave only to His people Israel.

Now, when the dark clouds of the end-time war are beginning to surround Israel from every side, G d is going to judge the nations exactly as He promised in His prophetic Word. G d will prove to them that He is determined to complete during these critical end-times what He started with Abraham and his seed Israel more than 4,000 years ago and that the re-established nation of Israel today in the Land of its biblical heritage is by far His greatest handiwork ever in the history of the world, and that a moral and G-dly redemption will come to the entire world only through the redemption of His people Israel. G d is busy together with His people Israel rebuilding His kingdom to be an example and a light to all the nations. The climax of this G-dly handiwork that is called Israel today is going to be the rebuilding of the Temple of G d by the people of Israel in Jerusalem and this will open the door for the coming of Messiah Ben David during our lifetimes. Jerusalem is again going to be the city where G d dwells among His people Israel and from where He will lead them and the entire world according to His holy and moral laws and principles. It behooves all of the nations that are coming again to remove Israel from the map of the world to realize that G d is going to judge them terribly and show them that no weapon in the world can stop His end-time plans with Israel or destroy His chosen people and that Israel, the most major and G-dly phenomenon ever in the history of mankind, is eternal and irrevocable.

My heart is telling me that all of the disasters, whether natural or as a result of immoral human behavior, and the cruel terror that is today spreading all over the world are warning signs of G d's impending judgment. At the last moment and before the terrible judgment day of G d, I am calling the entire world to declare to the enemies of Israel 'NO! STAND NOW WITH ISRAEL! Help her to build the Kingdom of G d throughout the Holy Land that He gave ONLY to Israel in an eternal covenant, for the fate and future of the entire world.'

The rebuilding of the Temple of G d is going to come to pass soon during our lifetimes where G d will dwell in the midst of His people Israel exactly as He said/declared: "And let them build Me a temple; that I may dwell among them." Exodus 25:8. And during these end-times He will also dwell in the midst of the entire world as it was prophesied by the prophet Isaiah:

Complete article at: Working to Rebuild the Third Temple in Jerusalem

Note: Gershon Salomon states that the next major event will be the appearance of Moshiach ben David. I have written to Salomon to inquire whether he believes therefore that Moshiach ben Yosef has already appeared or whether he does not accept the Two-Messiah teachings that others in Orthodox Judaism believe.

[Zguy28]

I find it odd that he would use Exodus 25:8 as his reference when in context it clearly referred to the Most Holy Place in the tabernacle that Moses built 3500 years ago.

The LORD said to Moses, "Speak to the people of Israel, that they take for me a contribution. From every man whose heart moves him you shall receive the contribution for me. And this is the contribution that you shall receive from them: gold, silver, and bronze, blue and purple and scarlet yarns and fine twined linen, goats' hair, tanned rams' skins, goatskins, acacia wood, oil for the lamps, spices for the anointing oil and for the fragrant incense, onyx stones, and stones for setting, for the ephod and for the breastpiece. And let them make me a sanctuary, that I may dwell in their midst. Exactly as I show you concerning the pattern of the tabernacle, and of all its furniture, so you shall make it.
(Exo 25:1-9 ESV)

[Starman3000m]

Originally Posted by Zguy28

I find it odd that he would use Exodus 25:8 as his reference when in context it clearly referred to the Most Holy Place in the tabernacle that Moses built 3500 years ago.

The LORD said to Moses, "Speak to the people of Israel, that they take for me a contribution. From every man whose heart moves him you shall receive the contribution for me. And this is the contribution that you shall receive from them: gold, silver, and bronze, blue and purple and scarlet yarns and fine twined linen, goats' hair, tanned rams' skins, goatskins, acacia wood, oil for the lamps, spices for the anointing oil and for the fragrant incense, onyx stones, and stones for setting, for the ephod and for the breastpiece. And let them make me a sanctuary, that I may dwell in their midst. Exactly as I show you concerning the pattern of the tabernacle, and of all its furniture, so you shall make it.
(Exo 25:1-9 ESV)

I believe that is speaking of the Holy of Holies area of the Temple. Such would be the case if Gershon's group were to be able to build the Temple in our lifetime. The Temple would have to include the original area of the Holy of Holies.

BTW: There is an archeological study of the Temple Mount that has determined that the Holy of Holies was not located within the floor space of the present Islamic Dome of the Rock. That means when it becomes possible for Israel to rebuild the Temple, it would be built to encompass the area of the Holy of Holies - in the present courtyard area.

However, prophecy states that it will be the antichrist that permits the building of the next Temple and Orthodox Jews will accept that individual - believing he is their awaited Messiah. That individual will bring a short-term pseudo peace which will eventually culminate with world armies leading a major war against Israel. That is the point when the True Moshiach ben David (Yeshua HaMashiach) will appear - according to Biblical prophecy.

That is the time when we will have A Milennial Reign of God's True Peace on earth, swords turned into plowshares, wolf and lamb cozying up with one another, and all will know that Yeshua is Lord.

[Nucklesack]

Originally Posted by Starman3000m

I believe that is speaking of the Holy of Holies area of the Temple. Such would be the case if Gershon's group were to be able to build the Temple in our lifetime. The Temple would have to include the original area of the Holy of Holies.

BTW: There is an archeological study of the Temple Mount that has determined that the Holy of Holies was not located within the floor space of the present Islamic Dome of the Rock. That means when it becomes possible for Israel to rebuild the Temple, it would be built to encompass the area of the Holy of Holies - in the present courtyard area.

However, prophecy states that it will be the antichrist that permits the building of the next Temple and Orthodox Jews will accept that individual - believing he is their awaited Messiah. That individual will bring a short-term pseudo peace which will eventually culminate with world armies leading a major war against Israel. That is the point when the True Moshiach ben David (Yeshua HaMashiach) will appear - according to Biblical prophecy.

That is the time when we will have A Milennial Reign of God's True Peace on earth, swords turned into plowshares, wolf and lamb cozying up with one another, and all will know that Yeshua is Lord.

Be fair, do not mix Christian Prophecies with Jewish ones.

Your belief states that Jews will do something, this is counter to what the Jewish faith believes. Just because it maybe different than your own, doesnt mean your belief and its expected prophecies override or supercede the Jewish ones.

[Starman3000m]

Originally Posted by Nucklesack

Be fair, do not mix Christian Prophecies with Jewish ones.

Your belief states that Jews will do something, this is counter to what the Jewish faith believes. Just because it maybe different than your own, doesnt mean your belief and its expected prophecies override or supercede the Jewish ones.

Hi Nucklesack my friend!

Excuse me, but it is the Orthodox Jews belief that they will do something. The "something" that they plan to do and pray continually to do is rebuild the Third Temple of God in anticipation of the appearance of Moshiach ben David. Ask any Orthodox.

The appearance of Moshiach ben David cannot occur until the Third Temple is built - according to Orthodox teachings.

Moshiach ben David will be "recognized" when "he" brings peace and Israel is established as the place of prayer for the people of the world.

These things parallel the New Testament prophecies of what will occur in the end times scenario and appearance of the antichrist system that will deceive the Jews into accepting a false Messiah.

In other words, Orthodox Judaism rejects the Atoning Blood of Yeshua HaMashiach as the New Covenant that God proclaimed he would establish and, instead, opts to await "any human" that fits their own job description for "Messiah" and who can step up and take control on Israel's behalf at anytime.

Do you accept the "Two-Messiah" teaching as taught in Orthodox Judaism?

If so, you should know that Moshiach ben David cannot appear until Moshiach ben Yosef first appears, is killed and great persecution comes against Israel and all Jewish people.

In other words, Israel can pray for peace and hope for Moshiach ben David to appear soon but things will get worse before they get better if Moshiach ben Yosef hasn't made it here yet.

[Nucklesack]

Originally Posted by Starman3000m

Hi Nucklesack my friend!

Hey there yourself!

Originally Posted by Starman3000m

Excuse me, but it is the Orthodox Jews belief that they will do something. The "something" that they plan to do and pray continually to do is rebuild the Third Temple of God in anticipation of the appearance of Moshiach ben David. Ask any Orthodox.

The appearance of Moshiach ben David cannot occur until the Third Temple is built - according to Orthodox teachings.

Moshiach ben David will be "recognized" when "he" brings peace and Israel is established as the place of prayer for the people of the world.

Yeppers, and ben David/Dovid will come after Ben Joseph/Yosef arrives and is killed in war

Originally Posted by Starman3000m

These things parallel the New Testament prophecies of what will occur in the end times scenario and appearance of the antichrist system that will deceive the Jews into accepting a false Messiah.

In other words, Orthodox Judaism rejects the Atoning Blood of Yeshua HaMashiach as the New Covenant that God proclaimed he would establish and, instead, opts to await "any human" that fits their own job description for "Messiah" and who can step up and take control on Israel's behalf at anytime.

Thats a really simplistic (and unfair) explanation of why Jews dont believe in Jesus as the Messiah.

Jews dont believe Jesus is the Messiah because they were foretold who that Messiah will be, and how to judge the validity of any "Messiah". Jews, using the Old Testament as justification, believe Jesus did not fullfill the requirements of the Messiah.

Upholding the scripture and dogma of the Old Testament is what caused the rift.

Jews expected the Messiah to fullfill the requirements listed in the Old Testament. Instead of following the OT to the letter, Christians believed in Jesus, and believed (even if it runs counter to the OT) that Jesus will finish the job in a Second Coming.

Now you can point to New Testament explanations of similiar acts described in the Old Testament, but that doesnt make them Old Testament prophecies for the true Messiah. Jews were told that Ben Joseph/Yosef would come, there would be a period of War, then his death, and then Ben David/Dovid would come. That Along with a huge list of other unfullfilled prophecies, is why Jews dont believe in Jesus as the Messiah.

What Jews believe in, has nothing to do with the New Testament. If your going to be honest in the discussion, from the Jewish perspective anything of the New Testament could parrallel the Old Testament.

Originally Posted by Starman3000m

Do you accept the "Two-Messiah" teaching as taught in Orthodox Judaism?

you know better than that, nice try

Originally Posted by Starman3000m

If so, you should know that Moshiach ben David cannot appear until Moshiach ben Yosef first appears, is killed and great persecution comes against Israel and all Jewish people.

In other words, Israel can pray for peace and hope for Moshiach ben David to appear soon but things will get worse before they get better if Moshiach ben Yosef hasn't made it here yet.

And that gets to what/who are Jews waiting for? Are Jews waiting for ben David/Dovid or are they waiting for ben Joseph/Yosef's arrival knowing ben David/Dovid will be coming afterwards?

Your post makes it sound as if they are waiting for ben David because ben Joseph has already come. This is what i meant about being fair and not mixing Christian beliefs into what the Jews expect.

The above (Ben Joseph has come, waiting on Ben David) is true from the Christian Perspective, but not the Jewish one. Jews are still waiting for both Joseph and David to arrive. In order, and with the all of the events and drama foretold in the Old Testament to be fullfilled.

[Toxick]

Originally Posted by Starman3000m

BTW: There is an archeological study of the Temple Mount that has determined that the Holy of Holies was not located within the floor space of the present Islamic Dome of the Rock. That means when it becomes possible for Israel to rebuild the Temple, it would be built to encompass the area of the Holy of Holies - in the present courtyard area.

So, there is no Christian representation on the temple mount.




We should fix this by erecting one of these on it:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi....Corcovado.jpg

[Starman3000m]

Originally Posted by Toxick

So, there is no Christian representation on the temple mount.

We should fix this by erecting one of these on it:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi....Corcovado.jpg

That would really start a Holy War not just between Muslims against Christians but Orthodox Jews against Christians as well. OOOPS! Jews and Muslims uniting against a common "enemy" ??? say it ain't so!

[Starman3000m]

Originally Posted by Nucklesack

Hey there yourself!
... Jews are still waiting for both Joseph and David to arrive. In order, and with the all of the events and drama foretold in the Old Testament to be fullfilled.

That's exactly why I stated that things are going to get worse for Israel before they will get better. So when Orthodox Judaism calls upon the Moshiach to hurry in and make his appearance, they are in effect going to have to pass through the Moshiach ben Yosef period when he gets killed in a major battle, Jews undergo the severist of persecutions as never before and Israel is on the brink of being destroyed. That is when Moshiach ben David appears.

In the New Testament parallel, it is the antichrist (whom Jews will accept as ben Yosef) that brings about a false peace and helps build the Third Temple of God. Then when things seem hunky dorey, antichrist does an about face, desecrates the Temple and turns against Israel.

At that point, Yeshua returns as Moshiach ben David to complete the New Covenant fulfillment that had been established when He first appeared as "son of Joseph" and died for the sins of His people. Salvation came first to the Jews, who accepted Yeshua, however, since the crucifixion it is not for the Jews only but for the whole world whereby we are covered by the Blood of The Lamb of God.

[Nucklesack]

Originally Posted by Starman3000m

That's exactly why I stated that things are going to get worse for Israel before they will get better. So when Orthodox Judaism calls upon the Moshiach to hurry in and make his appearance, they are in effect going to have to pass through the Moshiach ben Yosef period when he gets killed in a major battle, Jews undergo the severist of persecutions as never before and Israel is on the brink of being destroyed. That is when Moshiach ben David appears.

Yeppers, and those Jews that know their scripture are aware of the times they will go through before the Messiah arrives.

Originally Posted by Starman3000m

In the New Testament parallel, it is the antichrist (whom Jews will accept as ben Yosef) that brings about a false peace and helps build the Third Temple of God. Then when things seem hunky dorey, antichrist does an about face, desecrates the Temple and turns against Israel.

Thats fine, thats the Christian take on it.

But that is not what the OT states nor what the Jews believe.

It makes sense for a Christian to believe that the Jewish ben Joseph is the antichrist, because Christians believe Jesus already fullfilled this.

But to Jews, Jesus as he is practiced by the Christian Faith, is/could be the AntiChrist or False Messiah (the one warned about in the OT) because he didnt fullfill the prophecies (described in the OT) of the True Messiah. They are kinder and say Christians are misguided following a delusional prophet at best.

Originally Posted by Starman3000m

At that point, Yeshua returns as Moshiach ben David to complete the New Covenant fulfillment that had been established when He first appeared as "son of Joseph" and died for the sins of His people. Salvation came first to the Jews, who accepted Yeshua, however, since the crucifixion it is not for the Jews only but for the whole world whereby we are covered by the Blood of The Lamb of God.

And based on the scripture of the OT (now how the NT defines them) ben Joseph/Yosef and ben David/Dovid can not be Jesus, because the 2 entities are 2 seperate beings, not the same being returning. Let alone the entire 7 year timeline thing (but thats a quibble)