What The West Needs To Know

[Starman3000m]

Originally Posted by VoteJP

It is an irony that you give such an explanation for the swords that Jesus asked for and His followers carried since the Bible does not say it as you say it but you give a logical and sensible explanation to the text.

I never did understand why Jesus told them to carry swords, and to cut down the foliage for a path is news to me.

And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.
And he came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives; and his disciples also followed him. (Luke 22:38-39)

C'mon JP. Now, do you really think that Jesus had intended to arm his followers with swords in order to fight in defiance of the Roman centurions? Whenever most people go hiking where there may be thickets of grass and bushes, they usually carry a machete to clear the path. That does seem to be the logical thing to do. All they really need is one machete or when hiking with a party of twelve or more, two would be enough to help clear the way.

Just saying...

[ItalianScallion (Premo)]

Originally Posted by VoteJP

This has been a problem for Christians since the first century in that Christians keep claiming their end time prophesies to justify the never ending Christian injustices against anybody and everybody that gets in their view.
I do not know what 5 you refer to, but the latest attempt at Times Square New York was reported to have been orchestrated by and for the Taliban of Afghanistan which is logical (and it is political) since the USA invaded their Country based on lies, and even if the Al Qaeda were in that Country then it still was not the Taliban govt of Afghanistan that did anything to provoke or to justify the US invasion or the never ending occupation of their Country.
It is utterly unfair to blame the religion of Islam when it surely was the USA under the Christian Bush that invaded the Muslim Countries.

Times square bomber, Christmas Day bomber, Major Hassaan at Ft Hood, and 2 others but it's late and my memory is tired. I'm sure someone here knows the other hits we've taken because of Obama's lack of a backbone and 2 other small items...

Originally Posted by slaphappynmd

How can you call yourself a Christian?

Before I unload on you, tell me how anything I've said is different than what the Bible says?

[VoteJP]

Originally Posted by Starman3000m

And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.
And he came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives; and his disciples also followed him. (Luke 22:38-39)

C'mon JP. Now, do you really think that Jesus had intended to arm his followers with swords in order to fight in defiance of the Roman centurions? Whenever most people go hiking where there may be thickets of grass and bushes, they usually carry a machete to clear the path. That does seem to be the logical thing to do. All they really need is one machete or when hiking with a party of twelve or more, two would be enough to help clear the way.

Just saying...

I still give you credit for your interpreting the Bible, as Muslims can be credited for interpreting the Quran.

Religious text often need to be deciphered and translated to be understood.

As to your text of Luke 22 it says the disciples "followed" Jesus and they can not cut a path from behind.

A path must be cut upfront and Jesus would have had to followed them if that were the case.

Your interpretation does not match the text words.

[Starman3000m]

Originally Posted by VoteJP

I still give you credit for your interpreting the Bible, as Muslims can be credited for interpreting the Quran.

Religious text often need to be deciphered and translated to be understood.

As to your text of Luke 22 it says the disciples "followed" Jesus and they can not cut a path from behind.

A path must be cut upfront and Jesus would have had to followed them if that were the case.

Your interpretation does not match the text words.

Not really being there - one cannot say the specifics whether two may have been beside Him helping clear the path - which is quite possible. The Bible mentions that Christ had forerunners (prophetically) to clear the way for His ministry. Same could have been true for clearing brush and foliage on the trek. Jesus walks ahead of the group pushing brush aside and two others following behind Him cutting down the brush so that the rest of the party of all the disciples can walk through easily. Just the same, JP, the fact that only two swords were needed for this journey destroys your intent of trying to claim that Jesus' Disciples took up swords for the purpose of killing others.

This is in contrast to the Islamic prophet, Muhammad, who commanded his followers to take up swords and slay the Infidels wherever they were to be found. The Islamic cleric who is now calling on Muslims to "kill American citizens" is echoing the command that he has read and understood from the Qur'an and Ahadith (sayings of Muhammad).

If you really want to convince anyone that he/she is interpreting the Qur'an in a wrong way you need to tell that to the Jihadists, Mujahideen, Islamic Brotherhood, Al-Qaeda, Hezbullah, Ahmadinejad, PLA, etc. They seem to think that Muhammad sanctioned the striking of terror against all non-Muslims, establish plans for dominating this world for Al'lah, and establishing Islam as a One World Religion/Ideology with rule over all people.

Your freedom would be lost under Shari'a Laws - but you don't seem to comprehend that right now.

[VoteJP]

Originally Posted by Starman3000m

Not really being there - one cannot say the specifics whether two may have been beside Him helping clear the path - which is quite possible. The Bible mentions that Christ had forerunners (prophetically) to clear the way for His ministry. Same could have been true for clearing brush and foliage on the trek. Jesus walks ahead of the group pushing brush aside and two others following behind Him cutting down the brush so that the rest of the party of all the disciples can walk through easily. Just the same, JP, the fact that only two swords were needed for this journey destroys your intent of trying to claim that Jesus' Disciples took up swords for the purpose of killing others.

You certainly are going a long way around to try to argue that the Bible does not quite mean exactly what it says.

I am surprised that you can not make the old Greek words to mean hatchet or machete or bushwhacker instead of a sword, but since Jesus asked for "swords" and declared that those swords stood for some fulfilled prophesy so that means you have twisted this interpretation way out of context.

And that is okay by me, as I just wish you would give the same consideration to other people interpreting their own religious text.

Originally Posted by Starman3000m

This is in contrast to the Islamic prophet, Muhammad, who commanded his followers to take up swords and slay the Infidels wherever they were to be found.

The thing here is to define the word "infidel" which mean as "infidelity" as in unfaithfulness to God, so infidel only refers to those that willfully sin.

There must first be a fidelity before there can be an infidelity as in an infidel, and that means not a Christian nor Jew nor Muslim is an infidel except by their sinful actions and not based on their different religions.

When Christians act as religious bigots and as warmongers then those Christians are being unfaithful to Christ as to the Gospel and that is what makes one into an infidel.

Being a Christian or Jew is not an infidel, but being a sinful Christian or sinful Jew or sinful Muslim is what makes one into an infidel as infidelity to God.

That is what Muhammad and the Quran declares - and rightly so, and so does the Bible as in:

"... he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel." per 1 Timothy 5:8c, KJV.

Originally Posted by Starman3000m

The Islamic cleric who is now calling on Muslims to "kill American citizens" is echoing the command that he has read and understood from the Qur'an and Ahadith (sayings of Muhammad).

I do believe that particular American cleric Al-Awlaki is a CIA operative trying to fool everyone so as to gain the misguided trust of the political enemies of the USA.

He is not the spokesperson for the great religion of Islam.

Originally Posted by Starman3000m

If you really want to convince anyone that he/she is interpreting the Qur'an in a wrong way you need to tell that to the Jihadists, Mujahideen, Islamic Brotherhood, Al-Qaeda, Hezbullah, Ahmadinejad, PLA, etc.

I say you as many Christians / Americans have it wrong - and not they.

Originally Posted by Starman3000m

They seem to think that Muhammad sanctioned the striking of terror against all non-Muslims, establish plans for dominating this world for Al'lah, and establishing Islam as a One World Religion/Ideology with rule over all people.

All religions and all credible doctrines want to convert and to rule the entire world, and none would be much of a doctrine if they did not, just as Jesus prayed of "thy kingdom come on earth as it is in Heaven" so a united earth under the true God is the ultimate goal for us all.

And Muhammad as the Quran and as the Holy Bible does all allow for people to defend themselves against violent infidels, and infidel meaning sinners.

Originally Posted by Starman3000m

Your freedom would be lost under Shari'a Laws - but you don't seem to comprehend that right now.

I honestly do not have anything to fear from any branch of Islam.

But that means just me since I see the same God in Islam as in Christ and in all religions.

.

[Starman3000m]

Originally Posted by VoteJP

EDIT ... I do believe that particular American cleric Al-Awlaki is a CIA operative trying to fool everyone so as to gain the misguided trust of the political enemies of the USA.

He is not the spokesperson for the great religion of Islam.

Hmmm... So, now you are claiming that the CIA is actually behind the whole jihadist movement that calls for Muslims to kill American civilians? You continually fail to accept that fundamental Islam has always called for persecuting Jews, Christians and all non-Muslims until they submit to Islam. C'mon, JP, is this part of your campaign platform?

[ItalianScallion (Premo)]

Originally Posted by Starman3000m

You continually fail to accept that fundamental Islam has always called for persecuting Jews, Christians and all non-Muslims until they submit to Islam. C'mon, JP, is this part of your campaign platform?

No, he's just proving the Bible right again...
I only respond because I feel bad for him and his wrong choices. Fortunately no one here follows his illogic...

[VoteJP]

Originally Posted by Starman3000m

Hmmm... So, now you are claiming that the CIA is actually behind the whole jihadist movement that calls for Muslims to kill American civilians? You continually fail to accept that fundamental Islam has always called for persecuting Jews, Christians and all non-Muslims until they submit to Islam. C'mon, JP, is this part of your campaign platform?

I said that the CIA is behind that one American cleric, and they are trying to fool everyone and it especially fools those like your self.

But I do not claim that it is behind the entire resistance of American policies as that is your own exaggerated claim.

Fundamental Islam does not and has not called for persecuting the Jews or Christians or non-Muslims and the big explicit proof of that is that prior to the British then Jewish control of the Holy lands and Jerusalem then they were controlled by Muslim rule for hundreds of years without any persecution and the Holy lands rested in relative peace under Islamic control having Christians and Jews and Muslims living peacefully side by side, link HERE.

The thing I see you getting wrong is that "submitting to Islam" means submitting to God, so Muslims respect Christians that follow Christ just as Muslims respect Jews that follow Judaism because that is submitting to God.

But when Christians and Jews commit crimes and atrocities throughout the world then they are acting as infidels.

[This_person]

Originally Posted by VoteJP

I said that the CIA is behind that one American cleric, and they are trying to fool everyone and it especially fools those like your self.

But I do not claim that it is behind the entire resistance of American policies as that is your own exaggerated claim.

So, let me see if I have your point here correct....

A. America is wrong in virtually all we do, especially whatever it is we're doing that upsets Islamic people, and therefore Islamic people are right to kill us.
B. If an Islamic religious leader speaks out saying what you just said, he is actually a CIA plant making Islam look bad so we can have a war against Islam (even while we're not actually doing that).

So, if he's likely a plant for saying the same things you're saying, what should we think of you?

Fundamental Islam does not and has not called for persecuting the Jews or Christians or non-Muslims and the big explicit proof of that is that prior to the British then Jewish control of the Holy lands and Jerusalem then they were controlled by Muslim rule for hundreds of years without any persecution and the Holy lands rested in relative peace under Islamic control having Christians and Jews and Muslims living peacefully side by side,

Tell me, do Jews, Christians, or any other faith have the same citizenship rules in Islam-controlled nations as Muslims do in Jewish or Christian controlled nations?

[somdwatch]

And that is okay by me, as I just wish you would give the same consideration to other people interpreting their own religious text

So you would consider a Fundamentalist extremest's interpretation as OK. I suggest you take yourself over and learn first hand what their interpretation of your Infidel views are. Please ask they to video tape your discussions with them.
As a final request, Tell them once they behead you to place your head where they found it. At the opposite end of your shoulders.