Covenat Theology or Dispensationalist? Convince Me

[Marie]

I grew up in a Pre Millennial dispensationalist Church, than as a teen and adult spent years under Covenant theology and now neither one appear to be Biblically correct.

I see flaws in both. I am also bothered that Dispensationalism wasn't on the radar prior to the 1800's and what difference does it make, if the promises of the land in an earthly 1000 year Kingdom and salvation apply to both, and they do.

It seems problematic that the covenant theologian wants to go back wards and come up with un scriptural ideas or disregard that the number of the gentiles has yet to be fulfilled, and ignore that the Bible is divided into the covenants or testaments, of old and new and only go with the covenant of works pre the fall, and grace afterwards, or that the dispesationalist seems to ignore a ton of verses, that says were one vine, one church, one bride and that the blessings of Israel will benefit other nations. So why would I want to embrace either?

If your either one, than please provide some credibility form scripture alone. At present I think their both wrong, and I am not comfortable with either camp.

[Starman3000m]

Originally Posted by Marie

I grew up in a Pre Millennial dispensationalist Church, than as a teen and adult spent years under Covenant theology and now neither one appear to be Biblically correct.

I see flaws in both. I am also bothered that Dispensationalism wasn't on the radar prior to the 1800's and what difference does it make, if the promises of the land in an earthly 1000 year Kingdom and salvation apply to both, and they do.

It seems problematic that the covenant theologian wants to go back wards and come up with un scriptural ideas or disregard that the number of the gentiles has yet to be fulfilled, and ignore that the Bible is divided into the covenants or testaments, of old and new and only go with the covenant of works pre the fall, and grace afterwards, or that the dispesationalist seems to ignore a ton of verses, that says were one vine, one church, one bride and that the blessings of Israel will benefit other nations. So why would I want to embrace either?

If your either one, than please provide some credibility form scripture alone. At present I think their both wrong, and I am not comfortable with either camp.

Hi Marie and Happy New Year!

Wow, my dear Marie, you've issued quite a challenge here and to be honest, if you have the feeling that both camps are wrong then I doubt either of them will be able to convince you to sway back to their side. Perhaps you could outline some of the flaws that you see in both and then share what you have found to be an accurate interpretation based on the context of what you have read in scripture.

[Marie]

Originally Posted by Starman3000m

Hi Marie and Happy New Year!

Wow, my dear Marie, you've issued quite a challenge here and to be honest, if you have the feeling that both camps are wrong then I doubt either of them will be able to convince you to sway back to their side. Perhaps you could outline some of the flaws that you see in both and then share what you have found to be an accurate interpretation based on the context of what you have read in scripture.

OK, so lets look at the Dispionsationalist beliefs first. I am not looking to debate or defend either one, as I believe bits and pieces of both, but Id like to get on one side of the fence or the other.

I feel their wrong in the way they have been explained to me, the dispensationalist has only been defined by the covenant theologian, as if its something on the bottom of his shoe that he just stepped in and apparently there are many different types, the question is why is this so new and so widely embraced, and not even a consideration till the 1800s by the church?

New teachings are never good. For 1800 years none of the theological greats ever came up with this?
Why do they reject all the verses that say the Gentiles are grafted in that we are one body and one church. That those of Abraham are more than just physical descendants?

Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
Rom 9:7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named."
Rom 9:8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.


Why do they embrace a separate plan for Israel (The 12 tribes) when Israel seems to been given a new name meaning all those in Christ. Perhaps that is the issue the current definition of Israel.

But why separate Israel as a nation if the blessings are the same for the Entire Church?
I like that the disponsationalist says he interprets scripture literally, where the covenant theologian says he's using an apostles hermeneutic.
I have a lot of material blasting dispensationalist but its hard to get past the arrogance and the fallacies they start out with for their presuppositions.

I am back in a dispensationalist Church, I go to a dispensationalist school and the commentary in my Bible is written by one as well. I guess I just don't understand the benefits to taking a strong stance as Israel as a nation when the benefits are the same for all believers

[2ndAmendment]

Marie,

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said both are not right.

I cannot convince you one way or the other since I do not believe one way or the other.

• I believe that Jesus will physically be on earth for His millennial reign.
• I believe that the tribulation will occur before the second coming.
• I believe that Israel refers to the Israelites and not the nation or Israel.

From my list, you can see that some is dispensationalist and some is not. I think my list is consistent with scripture. It is not consistent with the doctrine of the church I attend since they believe in a pre-tribulation rapture.

I advise you to read and pray for wisdom. Where doctrine departs from scripture or scripture must be taken out of context or twisted in some way to prove a doctrine, I think the doctrine must be in error.

[Marie]

Originally Posted by 2ndAmendment

Marie,

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said both are not right.

I cannot convince you one way or the other since I do not believe one way or the other.

• I believe that Jesus will physically be on earth for His millennial reign.
• I believe that the tribulation will occur before the second coming.
• I believe that Israel refers to the Israelites and not the nation or Israel.

From my list, you can see that some is dispensationalist and some is not. I think my list is consistent with scripture. It is not consistent with the doctrine of the church I attend since they believe in a pre-tribulation rapture.

I advise you to read and pray for wisdom. Where doctrine departs from scripture or scripture must be taken out of context or twisted in some way to prove a doctrine, I think the doctrine must be in error.

Well thank you for the reply, at least I am not the only one that isn't pigeoned hole neatly into one or the other. There is an option C New covenant Theology but that seems even more scary than the other to, with regards to being in error.

[Starman3000m]

Originally Posted by 2ndAmendment

...I advise you to read and pray for wisdom. Where doctrine departs from scripture or scripture must be taken out of context or twisted in some way to prove a doctrine, I think the doctrine must be in error.

Good advice 2A! ItalianScallion has previously brought up this dilemma where Christian doctrines disagree on certain points that are really not-essential to a person's receiving salvation through personal faith in Christ alone.

Marie: As long as both camps believe in personally placing faith in the same New Testament Jesus Christ and repenting and have become born again, as Jesus proclaimed, then the individuals who have done so are part of the family of God and can be counted as "Children of God." (Galatians 3:26)

There are definite scriptural conflicts in most organized Christian denominations and that is why they disagree and become doctrinally separated in their interpretations of such things as eschatology and God's Grace. Many times congregants are then placed back under the law and become obligated to systems of "works" that are imposed by the specific denomination. Trust the Words of Christ for your Salvation and for establishing your spiritual walk with Him:

And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. (John 8:32)

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. (John 8:36)

BTW: At the Great White Throne Judgment, Jesus will not be looking at whether one was a Baptist; Methodist; Presbyterian; Episcopalian; Pentecostal or Non-denominational member, etc., because in the final analysis church "membership" does not guarantee Salvation!

Jesus will open the Book of Life and that's where one needs to be sure that their name is in there and has not been blotted out.

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. (Revelation 3:5)

[Marie]

Originally Posted by Starman3000m

Good advice 2A! ItalianScallion has previously brought up this dilemma where Christian doctrines disagree on certain points that are really not-essential to a person's receiving salvation through personal faith in Christ alone.

Originally Posted by Starman3000m

Marie: As long as both camps believe in personally placing faith in the same New Testament Jesus Christ and repenting and have become born again, as Jesus proclaimed, then the individuals who have done so are part of the family of God and can be counted as "Children of God." (Galatians 3:26)

There are definite scriptural conflicts in most organized Christian denominations and that is why they disagree and become doctrinally separated in their interpretations of such things as eschatology and God's Grace. Many times congregants are then placed back under the law and become obligated to systems of "works" that are imposed by the specific denomination. Trust the Words of Christ for your Salvation and for establishing your spiritual walk with Him:

And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. (John 8:32)

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. (John 8:36)

BTW: At the Great White Throne Judgment, Jesus will not be looking at whether one was a Baptist; Methodist; Presbyterian; Episcopalian; Pentecostal or Non-denominational member, etc., because in the final analysis church "membership" does not guarantee Salvation!

Jesus will open the Book of Life and that's where one needs to be sure that their name is in there and has not been blotted out.

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. (Revelation 3:5)

I agree but this is the lens we tend to read the text through, it gives us a presupposition to interpretation of the text.

I am reading a book by two former DTS grads that have jumped ship and are coming down on dispositionalist as being errant, but it appears in some areas he's wrong and using way to broad a brush. One of the items he swept into the mix is that they reject Lordship Salvation, although I know some personally that don't. He goes on further to say that in their interpretation the embraces old heresies. Its an interesting book if you can get by the points you disagree with. I have quite a few.

The book is Dispensationlism Today, Yesterday, and Tomorrow
(By Curtis I Crenshaw & Grover E Gunn III)

One of the thoughts I had while reading it, is I wonder if the pre trib, premillennial view has caused people both to be lax in their spiritual walk as well as evangelism, because they are subliminally marking the end with things that still need to come to pass, like the one world government, were if they believed in a different view point and that Christ could come today, there would be more urgency.

[Zguy28]

Marie, you have to ask yourself a couple questions first.

Do you believe that the Law of Moses is totally gone now, or that parts of it are still applicable to the believer (not for salvation) in sanctification?

Do you believe there is one people of God (spiritual Israel, sons of Abraham, one vine, etc.) composed of Jews and Gentiles, OR two (being Israel and the church) with the New Testament church is just a parenthetical footnote unforeseen by the OT prophets?

Also, what's so scary about New Covenant Theology?


Here is an article from Desiring God describing the three.

What does John Piper believe about dispensationalism, covenant theology, and new covenant theology? - Desiring God

Theopedia also has articles on the three theologies that are very informative, but knowing your history I'm sure you have already read them.

[Zguy28]

Originally Posted by Marie

One of the thoughts I had while reading it, is I wonder if the pre trib, premillennial view has caused people both to be lax in their spiritual walk as well as evangelism, because they are subliminally marking the end with things that still need to come to pass, like the one world government, were if they believed in a different view point and that Christ could come today, there would be more urgency.

On both sides complacency can become normative.

The Pre-Trib dispie falls into escapism and the CT'er can become complacent due to the views on election and pre-destination.

By the way, I'm a former Pre-Trib dispie. When I grew enough spiritually to understand things, I concluded that there was no way that Israel and the church were two different people's of God and that there is not going to be future animal sacrifices (fulfilled by Christ...see Hebrews), new temple (our body is the temple...see Romans), etc.

[Starman3000m]

Originally Posted by Marie

...One of the thoughts I had while reading it, is I wonder if the pre trib, premillennial view has caused people both to be lax in their spiritual walk as well as evangelism, because they are subliminally marking the end with things that still need to come to pass, like the one world government, were if they believed in a different view point and that Christ could come today, there would be more urgency.

Actually, the urgency of sharing the truths of God's Grace and Salvation through Christ should be at the top of the list for believers to be engaged in at all times. We should have a burden for those who are lost in deception and unbelief. That is partaking of The Great Commission that we are called to be engaged in(Acts 1:8) and as Paul exhorted in the following scripture:

2 Timothy, Ch. 4, verses:

1: I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2: Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3: For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
5: But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

We are also to be aware of the signs of the end times that the Bible has outlined and that in itself should give us even more urgency to warn others of the impending times of troubles that are coming against this world. Christians are not to become complacent in the security of their Salvation but should be active in helping others receive God's Gift of Salvation through Christ as we have.

As believers we should all see the coming One World Governmental system unfolding at a greater pace than ever and know what the Bible declares will be in store for those who are alive during that time. But, we should also be comforted that whatever takes place our souls are in God's Hands.

And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him. (Luke 12:4-5)