Prayer...

[Zguy28]

Originally Posted by Radiant1

And herein lay the crux of the Catholic sacrament of Annointing of the Sick, which could be for spiritual healing, physical healing, or upon death (Extreme Unction).

Do any of the Protestants here partake in an annointing with oil? I'm specifically interested if the fundamentalist non-denominationals do (SM or IS)?

Haven't been around in a few days, so I'm just getting to this.

Yes, us Southern Baptists do, and I have personally, anointed sick people with oil and laid hands on them as we prayed over them.


Now, on the topic of prayer... prayer is a thing I have not yet felt to have mastered. I pray...in intercession (there are so many sick people! It is at times overwhelming.), in thanksgiving (I frequently recite the Shema as part of it), in praise and adoration for who God is (His perfect holiness, Almighty, One True God, Creator), and in confession (I am the worst of sinners). Before I read the Scripture, I also ask for illumination from the Spirit. This leads to deeper contemplation.

I go through highs and lows though. At times my prayer is fervent or heady and lush, and at other times I go through "dark nights of the soul" when it is dry or seems to wither. I find that during the dark times, my tendency to sin is magnified. It also seems to be correlated to my study of God's Word.

As for the purpose...in the most general and simplistic form: prayer doesn't bring God into line with our will, it brings us into line with His.

[Zguy28]

Originally Posted by Bird Dog

Prayer keeps me on track. Without it I would stray.

I am easily tempted to go off track.

I like this.

BD is not a Saint.

This, not so much.

Are you familiar with the Greek word hagios?

hag'-ee-os
From ἅγος hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.


It is commonly translated "saint" in English. Paul regularly uses it in reference to all Christians.

1 Corinthians 1:2
2 To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:

[PsyOps (Premo)]

Originally Posted by Zguy28

I pray...in intercession (there are so many sick people! It is at times overwhelming.)

Do you pray God heals the person? Do you feel, that no matter the person, prayer or not, if a person is healed it was God’s doing? Can you actually differentiate between those that were healed by God and those that weren’t; that the disease just took it’s natural course? Can you explain why some that aren’t believers – people that would be considered, by most ethical standards, the worst example of a human being – are healed from debilitating diseases, while others that are devout believers, have been prayed on, hands laid on, anointed with oil, etc… aren’t healed?

These things happen every day. In the context of praying for healing, if God isn’t going to heal those we consider saved, while allowing those who we would consider not saved, what is the purpose of asking God to heal when his healing hand seems so random?

Please don't get me wrong... I am not begrudging those that believe God heals as a result of prayer. I am just curious what your thoughts on these questions are; because, quite honestly, it baffles me.

[Zguy28]

Originally Posted by PsyOps

Do you pray God heals the person? Do you feel, that no matter the person, prayer or not, if a person is healed it was God’s doing? Can you actually differentiate between those that were healed by God and those that weren’t; that the disease just took it’s natural course? Can you explain why some that aren’t believers – people that would be considered, by most ethical standards, the worst example of a human being – are healed from debilitating diseases, while others that are devout believers, have been prayed on, hands laid on, anointed with oil, etc… aren’t healed?

These things happen every day. In the context of praying for healing, if God isn’t going to heal those we consider saved, while allowing those who we would consider not saved, what is the purpose of asking God to heal when his healing hand seems so random?

Please don't get me wrong... I am not begrudging those that believe God heals as a result of prayer. I am just curious what your thoughts on these questions are; because, quite honestly, it baffles me.

I'm a Calvinist, pretty much everything, happens according to God's will.

If you are healed, God is responsible. If not, God is responsible. Is it for I, the clay, to always know the perfect will of the potter? God had mercy on me, only He knows why.

Is it the healing of the sick that is more important, or the asking of His people?

[PsyOps (Premo)]

Originally Posted by Zguy28

I'm a Calvinist, pretty much everything, happens according to God's will.

If you are healed, God is responsible. If not, God is responsible. Is it for I, the clay, to always know the perfect will of the potter? God had mercy on me, only He knows why.

Is it the healing of the sick that is more important, or the asking of His people?

If God’s will is God’s will and wont change regardless of how hard you pray, then what is the real purpose behind asking God to do something that may not be His will?

[Starman3000m]

Originally Posted by PsyOps

If God’s will is God’s will and wont change regardless of how hard you pray, then what is the real purpose behind asking God to do something that may not be His will?

How do you know what God's Will will be in a given situation unless you prayerfully ask in the first place? Then when you set the prayer petition before Him we are to pray with the personal and spiritual understanding of acknowledging to God: "Nevertheless, not my will but Your Will be done."

When God doesn't change something we ask Him to change it is because He has a different plan for us that is revealed in due time. Then we will see why.

Matthew 26:39-42 is a good example of where Jesus asked for the cup of God's Wrath to be taken away from Him. The result? Although Christ was sinless, all of our sins were poured upon Him and He's the One who incurred the penalty of the wrath of God that we, as sinners, deserve for our transgressions. Had Christ's prayer been answered in the Affirmitive, we would have no chance of partaking of God's Grace for the salvation of our soul as mentioned in John 3:14-18.

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

[Radiant1]

Originally Posted by PsyOps

How many that had cancer, and was annointed (with oil?) still died regardless; not only died but suffered terribly?

I contend this passage was meant strictly in a spiritual manner. My evidence is this... When Jesus was in the house of Simon the Leper a woman annointed Jesus with oil. He was neither sick nor dying. He explained that it was to prepare for his death. In Jame 5:14-15 it states "And the Lord will raise him up". I interpret that as meaning he will be raised him up from the dead and brought to heaven.

Yeah, ok. Healing comes in numerous forms, doesn't it.

[libby]

Originally Posted by PsyOps

Do you pray God heals the person? Do you feel, that no matter the person, prayer or not, if a person is healed it was God’s doing? Can you actually differentiate between those that were healed by God and those that weren’t; that the disease just took it’s natural course? Can you explain why some that aren’t believers – people that would be considered, by most ethical standards, the worst example of a human being – are healed from debilitating diseases, while others that are devout believers, have been prayed on, hands laid on, anointed with oil, etc… aren’t healed?

These things happen every day. In the context of praying for healing, if God isn’t going to heal those we consider saved, while allowing those who we would consider not saved, what is the purpose of asking God to heal when his healing hand seems so random?

Please don't get me wrong... I am not begrudging those that believe God heals as a result of prayer. I am just curious what your thoughts on these questions are; because, quite honestly, it baffles me.

As I said earlier, I think sometimes (well, actually, since God has to allow everything, then I have to say all the time) God allows suffering to bring us closer to Him. Now, the Catholic in my is going to out. We believe that we can unite our suffering to the Suffering of Jesus, and offer it for someone else's conversion, the conversion of the world, etc. Fasting is a good example of a "suffering" we willingly take on to detach ourselves from this-or-that. Anyway, so a "saved" person has cancer, and in most cases would hope for physical healing, but would already be willing to follow where God leads him, so, if Catholic, can "offer it up" to God. A non-believer gets cancer, and typically even a non-believer will cry out to God in such darkness. Perhaps God heals that person to show His Power and Mercy to that person. Some recognize, some don't. But none of this is for that person alone, it's for everyone else, too. We are all connected as a family, and even if the healed non-believer doesn't come to faith in Jesus Christ, perhaps someone else who saw what happened will. Only God sees it all perfectly.
I once heard the idea that our lives, the life of the world, is like a tapestry. We are looking from the back, where we see snags, bits of thread, and a general mess; but, turn it over (where God sees) and you have a masterpiece. I always liked that.

[Radiant1]

Originally Posted by Zguy28

Yes, us Southern Baptists do, and I have personally, anointed sick people with oil and laid hands on them as we prayed over them.

[onel0126]

Originally Posted by Zguy28

I'm a Calvinist, pretty much everything, happens according to God's will.

Glad you brought this up. I assume you believe in double predestination, no? Back in the Mormon thread Starman posted the following:

Question: "Which of the 30,000 Protestant denominations is the true church of God?"
Answer: In order to argue against Protestantism and Sola Scriptura, Roman Catholics will often ask, sarcastically, that if we are to only go by what the Bible says, not church tradition, which of the 30,000-plus Protestant denominations has the correct interpretation? The argument is essentially that, since the Reformation has resulted in thousands of denominations/divisions within Christianity, which is clearly not God’s desire, Sola Scriptura must be invalid and God must have established an infallible interpreter of Scripture; namely, the Roman Catholic Church, the first church, the one true church of God.

(FIRST) The “30,000 Protestant denominations” argument fails on several points. First, there are not 30,000 Protestant denominations. Even under the most liberal definition of what constitutes a denomination, there are nowhere close to 30,000 Protestant denominations. The only way to get even remotely close to the 30,000 figure is to count every minor separation as an entirely different denomination. Further, the vast majority of Protestant Christians belong to just a handful of the most common Protestant denominations; i.e., Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, etc. Yes, it is undeniably sad that there are so many denominations, but the 30,000 Protestant denominations argument is an extreme exaggeration of the reality of the divisions within Protestantism.

Second, even if there genuinely were 30,000 Protestant denominations, one thing all Protestant denominations agree on is that the Roman Catholic Church is not the one true church of God. Protestant denominations are unanimous in rejecting the papacy, the supremacy of Rome, prayer to saints/Mary, worship of saints/Mary, transubstantiation, purgatory, and most other Roman Catholic dogmas. Sola Scriptura has led all Protestant denominations to the same conclusion – the Bible does not teach many of the things Roman Catholics practice/believe. Further, outside of disagreeing with Roman Catholicism, the Protestant denominations agree on far more issues than they disagree on. Most of the Protestant denominations were formed because of a non-essential doctrine, a side issue, on which Christians can agree to disagree. As an example, Pentecostalism separated from the other denominations based primarily on the issue of speaking in tongues. While tongues can be an important issue in the Christian life, in no sense does it determine the genuineness of faith in Christ.

Third, there is no infallible interpreter of Scripture, nor is there a need for one. There is no infallible denomination or church. Even after receiving Christ as Savior, we are all still tainted by sin. We all make mistakes. No denomination/church has absolutely perfect doctrine on every issue. The key is this – all the essentials of the faith are abundantly clear in God’s Word. We do not need an infallible interpreter or 2,000 years of church tradition to determine that there is one God who exists in three Persons, that Jesus died for our sins and was resurrected from the dead, that Jesus is the one and only way of salvation, that salvation is received by grace through faith, that there is an eternal heaven awaiting those who trust in Christ and an eternal hell for those who reject Him.

The core truths that a person needs to know and understand are absolutely and abundantly clear in Scripture. Even on the non-essentials, if Sola Scriptura were consistently applied, there would be unanimity. The problem is that it is very difficult to perfectly and fully apply Sola Scriptura, as our own biases, faults, preferences, and traditions often get in the way. The fact that there are many different denominations is not an argument against Sola Scriptura. Rather, it is evidence that we all fail at truly allowing God’s Word to fully shape our beliefs, practices, and traditions.

This post of course came from SM's go-to site Got Answers? I bolded things above not to bash anyone's beliefs but to point out that the assertion that Protestants agree on most things is simply not true. Here is Houdmann's post from Got Answers regarding double predestination:

Question: "What is double predestination?"

Answer: Double predestination is the belief that God creates some people whose purpose in existence is to be sent to hell. Is this concept biblical? Let us look at the question from the book of Romans, which has two predominant themes throughout. The first theme is the righteousness of God. It is the gospel message itself that reveals God's righteousness (Romans 1:16-17). It is the truth contained within gospel message that by faith declares a man righteous before God (Romans 4-5). It is central figure of the gospel message—Jesus Christ—that enables a man to be righteous (Romans 6-7). It is the gospel message that shows man the way to live in a righteous manner (Romans 12).

Another theme found in the book of Romans is that of wrath. God's wrath has been revealed—and is being revealed—against all sinful actions (Romans 1:18). Mankind knows about God, but rejects God in their thinking and in their actions (Romans 1:21-22). The wrath of God, therefore, is the giving over of man to live his life as he pleases (Romans 1:24, 26, 28), which apart from God leads to destruction (Romans 1:28-32). Man rejects the God of the universe, and God, in turn, forsakes man. Only a personal intervention from God can alter the destructive path on which man finds himself while he hardens himself in sin.

Now we read Romans 9:22, and it says, "What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?" Many people think this verse teaches that God has made certain vessels for His wrath. But this is not the point of the verse. Reading above, mankind has already experienced God's wrath. Mankind has fitted himself for destruction. It is God who endures these vessels—vessels who have prepared themselves for destruction because they would not leave their sin and turn to God.

Look at the next verse: Romans 9:23, "And he did so in order that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory." Notice that God elects certain people beforehand for His glory. In other words, before the foundation of the world God chose certain people to be His children in order that He would be glorified (see Ephesians 1:4). It does not say that God chose people to damnation or predestined people to wrath. The Bible never speaks about a double predestination where God elects or predestinates some to hell, others to heaven. Those who are under God's wrath are in that position because they have rejected God. Those that have the righteousness of God are in that position because God has chosen them to be His children.

Now, feel free to say that this is a minor disagreement with a straight face. Didn't think so.