Prayer...

[b23hqb]

Originally Posted by libby

The way I've heard that put is that God cannot do that which is against His very Nature. Forcing someone into something is not love, and God is Perfect Love. Saving someone who does not want to be saved is a manner of force, and therefore something less than perfect love.

Well stated. God offered Himself, through the son-ship of Jesus Christ, as the perfect sacrifice to atone for man's sin.

The offer still stands, but has to be received in the heart of anyone who will believe. He will not force Himself to make anyone believe. Only our individual choice will determine that ending. That is love, by letting one's people decide for themselves, and giving us that opportunity until we take our last breath, or the rapture, whichever comes first.

The best love we as a people can demonstrate is agape love - that is, giving, giving, and when no more is left to give, give some more, and expect absolutely nothing in return.

Our earthly love, and ability to give it, is so finite, insignificant, actually, in the light of Gods' love.

Gods love is essentially incomprehensible to us. That's where faith enters into the picture.

[Zguy28]

Originally Posted by b23hqb

Well stated. God offered Himself, through the son-ship of Jesus Christ, as the perfect sacrifice to atone for man's sin.

The offer still stands, but has to be received in the heart of anyone who will believe. He will not force Himself to make anyone believe. Only our individual choice will determine that ending. That is love, by letting one's people decide for themselves, and giving us that opportunity until we take our last breath, or the rapture, whichever comes first.

The best love we as a people can demonstrate is agape love - that is, giving, giving, and when no more is left to give, give some more, and expect absolutely nothing in return.

Our earthly love, and ability to give it, is so finite, insignificant, actually, in the light of Gods' love.

Gods love is essentially incomprehensible to us. That's where faith enters into the picture.

Except that you can't choose, either to accept or repent. Both have to be enabled by God as a gift to the individual. If you don't believe me, look it up. The apostle's writings are full of it. Jesus said that the only reason the apostle's recognized He was the Messiah was because God revealed it to them and hid it from others (Matt. 16ff).

[b23hqb]

Originally Posted by Zguy28

Except that you can't choose, either to accept or repent. Both have to be enabled by God as a gift to the individual. If you don't believe me, look it up. The apostle's writings are full of it. Jesus said that the only reason the apostle's recognized He was the Messiah was because God revealed it to them and hid it from others (Matt. 16ff).

Bull. Your choice. God knows it. Period. He is Omniscient - past, present, future. He knows how we, individually, accept/receive His invitation. In finality. Before we perish, physically.

It is still your choice. By changing your choice will also be known to God, in advance.

Your choice. Always has been, always is, always will be.

Up to you. If you chose to believe and accept, that is the way it was, and will be.

If you chose to not believe, that is the way it was, and will be.

Your choice, from pre-destination, determines your final resting place.

Bottom line.

Up to you dude, and dudessssss........

No way out of it. Your individual choice.

A very heavy decision. But it will lighten your heart and soul, if you chose Christ.

One way or the other.

Either see you there in Glory or not. Your choice.

[PsyOps (Premo)]

Originally Posted by Zguy28

Except that you can't choose, either to accept or repent. Both have to be enabled by God as a gift to the individual. If you don't believe me, look it up. The apostle's writings are full of it. Jesus said that the only reason the apostle's recognized He was the Messiah was because God revealed it to them and hid it from others (Matt. 16ff).

Let me make sure I’m understanding you… Are you saying no one is saved except that God basically forced them to be saved? That God forced His reality on you? That you really had no choice in the matter?

If this is the case, you have to conclude that He also chose others not to believe. So my question from that standpoint is… Why even have a gospel? Why the need for a savior? Why a need for Jesus to tell us “… whoever believes in him shall not perish…” The entire chapter of John 3 (and elsewhere) talks about things we MUST do to be saved; not things that God will force us to do.

Or maybe I’m misunderstanding you.

[Christy]

Originally Posted by Radiant1

My prayer these days consist of a more contemplative style, centering and Lectio Divina. I just open myself up and let God do His work. Not my will but Yours be done and may I have the grace to accept it no matter what it may be.

Centering Prayer

Interesting. This is pretty much how I roll. I had no idea it had a classification.

[Starman3000m]

Originally Posted by Zguy28

Except that you can't choose, either to accept or repent. Both have to be enabled by God as a gift to the individual. If you don't believe me, look it up. The apostle's writings are full of it. Jesus said that the only reason the apostle's recognized He was the Messiah was because God revealed it to them and hid it from others (Matt. 16ff).

Sorry, zguy28, but Calvin's doctrine of "predestination of souls" is actually refuted by the context of the Holy Bible. It appears that Calvin took scripture out of context by misinterpreting Jesus' words regarding being "chosen" that were directed specifically to the Apostles; Calvin thought this applied to all people. The following text shows that Jesus chose the individual Apostles (including Judas) to have a specific role in the ministry of God's Plan of Salvation that would be brought to this world. The Apostles are the ones who had been "predestined" beforehand to be the ones that would carry out the Great Commission:

Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. These things I command you, that ye love one another. (John 5:15-17)

Jesus' prayer for the Apostles who were "pre-ordained" to take the Gospel forth into the world so that people may hear and come to believe in Christ through their preaching:

John Chapter 17, verses:

12) While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13) And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14) I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15) I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16) They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17) Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18) As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19) And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20) Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21) That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22) And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Also, even though Paul was not one of the original Apostles, he was also selected by Jesus for the specific purpose of his ministry. So, when Paul mentions about being "predestinated", Paul was specifically including himself and the other Apostles who had been selected (pre-ordained/pre-destined) to be part of God's purpose for spreading the Gospel Message to the world.

That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. (Ephesians 1:10-12)

Now, it is still up to each individual to decide whether to accept or reject God's Plan of Salvation through the Gospel Message of the New Testament Jesus Christ.

[Zguy28]

Originally Posted by b23hqb

Bull. Your choice. God knows it. Period. He is Omniscient - past, present, future. He knows how we, individually, accept/receive His invitation. In finality. Before we perish, physically.

It is still your choice. By changing your choice will also be known to God, in advance.

Your choice. Always has been, always is, always will be.

Up to you. If you chose to believe and accept, that is the way it was, and will be.

If you chose to not believe, that is the way it was, and will be.

Your choice, from pre-destination, determines your final resting place.

Bottom line.

Up to you dude, and dudessssss........

No way out of it. Your individual choice.

A very heavy decision. But it will lighten your heart and soul, if you chose Christ.

One way or the other.

Either see you there in Glory or not. Your choice.

So glad you reject the bible.

[Zguy28]

Originally Posted by Starman3000m

Sorry, zguy28, but Calvin's doctrine of "predestination of souls" is actually refuted by the context of the Holy Bible.

I obviously disagree.

It appears that Calvin took scripture out of context by applying Jesus' words regarding being "chosen" that were directed to the Apostles; Calvin thought this applied to all people.

Calvin wasn't perfect, and actually what is known as Calvinism (actually known as Reformed Theology) is more a reflection of the Synod of Dort, than Calvin himself.

The following text shows that Jesus chose the individual Apostles (including Judas) to have a specific role in the ministry of God's Plan of Salvation that would be brought to this world. The Apostles are the ones who had been "predestined" beforehand to be the ones that would carry out the Great Commission:

Of course He chose them.

But do you honestly deny that the following only applies to the apostles?

Ephesians 1 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)

Ephesians 1

Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
Ephesians 1
Greeting
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by God’s will:

To the faithful saints in Christ Jesus at Ephesus.

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
God’s Rich Blessings
3 Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavens. 4 For He chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless in His sight. In love 5 He predestined us to be adopted through Jesus Christ for Himself, according to His favor and will, 6 to the praise of His glorious grace that He favored us with in the Beloved.

7 We have redemption in Him through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 that He lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure that He planned in Him 10 for the administration of the days of fulfillment—to bring everything together in the Messiah, both things in heaven and things on earth in Him.

11 We have also received an inheritance in Him, predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will, 12 so that we who had already put our hope in the Messiah might bring praise to His glory.

13 When you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and when you believed in Him, you were also sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. 14 He is the down payment of our inheritance, for the redemption of the possession, to the praise of His glory.

Or this?

Ephesians 2
From Death to Life
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins 2 in which you previously walked according to the ways of this world, according to the ruler who exercises authority over the lower heavens, the spirit now working in the disobedient. 3 We too all previously lived among them in our fleshly desires, carrying out the inclinations of our flesh and thoughts, and we were by nature children under wrath as the others were also. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us, 5 made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace! 6 Together with Christ Jesus He also raised us up and seated us in the heavens, 7 so that in the coming ages He might display the immeasurable riches of His grace through His kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift— 9 not from works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them.

Jesus' prayer for the Apostles who were "pre-ordained" to take the Gospel forth into the world so that people may hear and come to believe in Christ through their preaching:



Also, even though Paul was not one of the original Apostles, he was also selected by Jesus for the specific purpose of his ministry. So, when Paul mentions about being "predestinated", Paul was specifically including himself and the other Apostles who had been selected (pre-ordained/pre-destined) to be part of God's purpose for spreading the Gospel Message to the world.

See Ephesians above. Don't let your personal systematic theology overrule biblical theology.

Now, it is still up to each individual to decide whether to accept or reject God's Plan of Salvation through the Gospel Message of the New Testament Jesus Christ.

Of course it is. But God's sovereign grace is still supreme and the Scripture cannot be denied.

[Starman3000m]

Originally Posted by Zguy28

I obviously disagree.

Calvin wasn't perfect, and actually what is known as Calvinism (actually known as Reformed Theology) is more a reflection of the Synod of Dort, than Calvin himself. Of course He chose them.

But do you honestly deny that the following only applies to the apostles?

Ephesians 1 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)

Ephesians 1

Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
Ephesians 1
Greeting
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by God’s will:

To the faithful saints in Christ Jesus at Ephesus.

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
God’s Rich Blessings
3 Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavens. 4 For He chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless in His sight. In love 5 He predestined us to be adopted through Jesus Christ for Himself, according to His favor and will, 6 to the praise of His glorious grace that He favored us with in the Beloved.

7 We have redemption in Him through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 that He lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure that He planned in Him 10 for the administration of the days of fulfillment—to bring everything together in the Messiah, both things in heaven and things on earth in Him.

11 We have also received an inheritance in Him, predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will, 12 so that we who had already put our hope in the Messiah might bring praise to His glory.

13 When you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and when you believed in Him, you were also sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. 14 He is the down payment of our inheritance, for the redemption of the possession, to the praise of His glory.

Or this?

Ephesians 2
From Death to Life
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins 2 in which you previously walked according to the ways of this world, according to the ruler who exercises authority over the lower heavens, the spirit now working in the disobedient. 3 We too all previously lived among them in our fleshly desires, carrying out the inclinations of our flesh and thoughts, and we were by nature children under wrath as the others were also. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us, 5 made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace! 6 Together with Christ Jesus He also raised us up and seated us in the heavens, 7 so that in the coming ages He might display the immeasurable riches of His grace through His kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift— 9 not from works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them.


See Ephesians above. Don't let your personal systematic theology overrule biblical theology.

Of course it is. But God's sovereign grace is still supreme and the Scripture cannot be denied.

If predestination is true, then why will there be a Great White Throne Judgment?

Also, if predestination is true, then how is it that people's names are blotted out of the Lamb's Book of Life? They couldn't be blotted out unless they had been in the Lamb's Book of Life to begin with. Those whose names are blotted out are those who rejected the testimony of Jesus Christ.

With all due respect, Zguy28, it is still an individual's choice whereby the fate will be doled out at the Great White Throne Judgment for those who rejected God's Plan of Salvation and whose names were blotted out of the Lamb's Book of Life.

[libby]

Originally Posted by Starman3000m

Also, if predestination is true, then how is it that people's names are blotted out of the Lamb's Book of Life? They couldn't be blotted out unless they had been in the Lamb's Book of Life to begin with. Those whose names are blotted out are those who rejected the testimony of Jesus Christ.

With all due respect, Zguy28, it is still an individual's choice whereby the fate will be doled out at the Great White Throne Judgment for those who rejected God's Plan of Salvation and whose names were blotted out of the Lamb's Book of Life.

If Once Saved Always Saved is true, these questions apply as well. Buuuutttt, not for you, SM. You're going to start telling Zguy that he worships "another Jesus", right?
Might want to put SM on ignore now, Z.