Free Will and Religion

[McGinn77]

Originally Posted by PsyOps

FAIL!

see how handy it is to wait until someone can actually answer the question before you use that word...

[b23hqb]

Originally Posted by Railroad

Perhaps these doctrinal arguments where we seem to try to condemn each other, are the reason Jesus said we should have faith as a little child. Simply believing without getting all wrapped around the axle.

So many just can't do that, RR. You know, the old pride thing, the thing that got Lucifer and his kicked out heaven.

So many men/women just to try and figure God out (impossible, despite overwhelming evidence against there not being a Creator), rather than just look at the universe, nature, our hands, our eyes, and just figure God in.

All will believe in time. Unfortunately for billions, that will only be when they are judged and sent into a lost eternity.

So sad for those that simply reject the Good News.

[UNA]

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

"Pre-determined" might not be the correct word regarding our salvation. Our salvation is determined by our responding to God's call but yes, after that, God predestines (or predetermines) much of our lives. We still have our free will because God does allow us to do things that He doesn't approve of. The difference is that He can take those things and turn them into a good outcome for us.

And yes again, "we will continue to follow Him after accepting the call" because WE chose to. He doesn't force us to continue. The Bible talks about people wanting to follow Christ then, later, changing their mind and walking away forever. If you'd like to read it, it's in Matthew 13 v 1-24.

What would be the correct word then? "Predestination" is the word used in the Bible, so did the Bible use the wrong word?

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

Actually the entire Bible shows God trying to get humanity to follow Him so as not to have to spend eternity apart from Him. There's too many to list but here are a few:

Genesis 3
Deuteronomy 30 v 17-20
Matthew 23 v 37
Rev 3v20

God trying to get us to follow him is not what is being discussed here. You said the correct interpretation of Romans 9:16 was that Paul was implying that God never chose a person against there will (and so it would follow that God would also not not choose us against our will). What is your context for this interpretation over mine?

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

People change over time. Although I believed there was a God, I was just having too much fun in life to go to church or read the Bible. As I got older, I started wondering what life was really about. I had everything going for me that life could offer but I felt like something was still missing. God was missing and He had been trying to tell me that but I didn't listen (for real) until I was 34 years old.

IDK, seems pretty dumb to believe in God but then refuse to follow him especially if you also believe eternal salvation is on the line. Not saying you're dumb, just trying to understand where you're coming from.

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

Not me! I like some green alligators and long necked geese, some humpty backed camels and some chimpanzees, some cats & rats & elephants but sure as you're born, NOAH FORGOT THE UNICORNS!!!

But they were the loveliest of them all!!

Do you see what I was saying though?

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

If God thought that would work, He just might appear to you in a dream or vision but many of those people who saw Jesus in person still didn't believe. This is why God said that His people must believe in Him by faith. He's not coming back again until the end of the world so don't expect Him to magically appear to you. One thing I know: He's sent you a LOT of caring people right here on this forum who are trying to convince you about Him but you're not listening...

If you really want to believe in Him, He WILL give you the same evidence He's given all of us Christians. If you don't want to believe in Him, He WILL grant you that wish too. Just remember this: Either way, it's forever. You're forever with Him or forever without Him. You can't change your destination once you die...

Again, you seem to be assuming that atheists/agnostics would not rather things work like you believe. I'd much rather my consciousness go on but there is no evidence that it does.

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

Our faith is in the evidence that points to God. I can't take you to a place and say: Here's God. If that was how it could be done, He would have to appear to everyone throughout history. He did it once and won't do it again until the end.

I don't know where you live but did you see the devastation that the hurricane of 2002 caused in LaPlata? I saw it 20 minutes after the funnel crossed 301. There was no wondering about what caused that kind of destruction. Everyone knew! It's the same with God. Our faith comes from believing in what we cannot see because of the evidence in the things we can see. See?

So a tornado is proof of God? But we can explain it (pretty well) empirically, there is no need for God here...

[UNA]

Originally Posted by Starman3000m

Hi UNA,

Jesus left a lot of evidence in His teachings that have been recorded in the Holy Bible. His disciples were there with Him and documented first-hand experiences that point to Jesus being the Messiah and Saviour of mankind as He proclaimed.

This is where faith and trust becomes the essence of coming to the spiritual understanding about God and about His Plan of Salvation that is offered through Jesus for eternal life in Heaven. He freely offers it to you, your friends, your family - the whole world! As ItalianScallion said, it's up to you whether you want to believe Him or not. If you invite Jesus to be your Saviour, He will not turn you away.

The word of men that lived thousands of years ago just isn't enough to convince me, especially since no one bothered to write it down at the time.

[UNA]

Originally Posted by PsyOps

From a rhetorical argument standpoint, I don’t. I can’t prove anything anymore than you. What I can say is, IF you believe what the bible says, God gave us a choice. From a logical standpoint it makes no sense for God to give us a choice and beneath the surface the whole thing be a lie. What purpose would that really serve?

It is this type of conundrum that leads many away from the Bible and to reason. This is a Biblical contradiction, the Bible says what it says and no interpretation of it can be sound because we just don't know. The Bible...#1 deconverter of Christians.

Originally Posted by PsyOps

One of the premises of believing in this God is to accept that He is our creator and has a will. You can either argue against it or accept that this is what it is. Part of that will is He decided to create this universe. He decided to put our lives in it. It is HIS creation. I view it – my life – as a gift; not some incidental chemical phenomenon. Without Him I don’t exist to sit here and discuss these things with you. So, what God gives us, it is HIS to take away as He sees fit. Arguing against that assumes you know better than God how to handle His creation.

Why should we accept that?!

Wait a second...if God can do whatever He want with/to us whenever He wants for whatever reason...then how can you count of free will? The mere ability to take it away negates the concept. Assuming He wont is NOT a safe not a valid assumption.

Originally Posted by PsyOps

You can’t extrapolate those few passages and say ‘this is how it is’ when you’re ignoring other passages that define things differently. God gave Adam and Eve a choice. THEY chose. God did, through history choose certain people (Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, Jesus, Jesus’ disciples…) to fulfill His purpose. I would certainly support the argument that God predestined these individuals’ purposes.

OK, so He predestined them which means He can do it to anyone. By definition, this effects free will.

Originally Posted by PsyOps

Our existence, devoid of God serves no purpose. For life to even exist in a world without God has absolutely no meaning at all. We’re incidental travelers through time then *poof* we’re gone. What grand purpose did that serve? Nothing. The universe will simply move on to the next event without a blink. If this is true, why do we go through so much effort trying to define a purpose in our lives, in our civilization, when in the near future – in the cosmic definition of ‘future’ – we’re gone?

This is a difference between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation. My life (all out lives) doesn't have purpose because an imaginary creature gave it one rather my life has purpose because I have hopes, dreams, goals, happiness, sadness and a will to leave the world a better place.

[ItalianScallion (Premo)]

Originally Posted by McGinn77

Maybe you've said there is proof, maybe you've tried to provide it, but you haven't given me any. So here's your chance.

You didn't believe me the last time I gave you proof or evidence (The Creation, historical documents, archaeology, etc) so...

Originally Posted by UNA

What would be the correct word then? "Predestination" is the word used in the Bible, so did the Bible use the wrong word?

Predestines is a good enough word for what happens. God knows what will happen to each of us, all the time. He doesn't have to change everything that happens unless He feels that it might cause us mortal harm. He let's a lot of things happen just as they would during the normal course of our lives. He sometimes intervenes, just like our parents would do, to protect us.

Originally Posted by UNA

IDK, seems pretty dumb to believe in God but then refuse to follow him especially if you also believe eternal salvation is on the line. Not saying you're dumb, just trying to understand where you're coming from.

Not really. It's the difference between knowing about someone vs becoming close with them. I thought I was "cool with God" but I really wasn't until I really got to know Him.

Originally Posted by UNA

But they were the loveliest of them all!! Do you see what I was saying though?

Yes.

Originally Posted by UNA

...I'd much rather my consciousness go on but there is no evidence that it does.

Jesus said there is...

Originally Posted by UNA

So a tornado is proof of God? But we can explain it (pretty well) empirically, there is no need for God here...

No, it was just an analogy.

[McGinn77]

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

You didn't believe me the last time I gave you proof or evidence (The Creation, historical documents, archaeology, etc) so...

No, I provided this proof:

If: Creation = Creator
Then: No creator = No Creation

Therefore: God has no creator = God doesn't exist

[Starman3000m]

Originally Posted by UNA

The word of men that lived thousands of years ago just isn't enough to convince me, especially since no one bothered to write it down at the time.

But they did UNA! The Old Testament writings of Judaism (Tanakh) were at first passed along through oral teaching but then they were written down by the scribes. Jewish High Priests unrolled the scrolls and taught from them - the teachings of Moses and the Prophets whose words were documented and told the accounts about God's guidance, God's Laws and the coming day of a Messiah who would bring True Peace on earth. Jesus even read from them as noted in Luke 4:17-19:

And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord...

The Disciples of Jesus wrote letters to one another on parchment and their writings were passed along in the preaching ministry of the early 1st-century church. Those are the eye-witness accounts that are reliable and tell about the events happening during the time of Jesus. The writings comprise The New Testament teachings in the Holy Bible.

So, yes, men did "bother to write it down at the time."

[ItalianScallion (Premo)]

Originally Posted by McGinn77

No, I provided this proof:

If: Creation = Creator
Then: No creator = No Creation

Therefore: God has no creator = God doesn't exist

That is completely wrong because God doesn't always follow logical paths. You're trying to put limits on that which is limitless. IOW: You're trying to understand an infinite being with your finite mind.

You put science ahead of God when it should be the other way around. God made all the laws of science & nature and He didn't make them so that people would use them to disprove His existence.

Until you're willing to accept spiritual things by faith (and they're not imaginary) their understanding will always elude you.

[McGinn77]

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

That is completely wrong because God doesn't always follow logical paths. You're trying to put limits on that which is limitless. IOW: You're trying to understand an infinite being with your finite mind.

You put science ahead of God when it should be the other way around. God made all the laws of science & nature and He didn't make them so that people would use them to disprove His existence.

Until you're willing to accept spiritual things by faith (and they're not imaginary) their understanding will always elude you.

And we are done as the circle talk begins.

Final thoughts, the universe is expanding faster than the speed of light, since nothing moves faster than the speed of light the universe is infinite. Yet my finite mind does a pretty good job at understanding that (that's not to say I or anyone knows everything about the universe yet). The number line is infinite and I understand math. I can grasp 4 spacial dimensions even though I only experience 3.

The fundamental problem I have with religion is that it assumes it knows everything (the answer being god) while science looks at how much we have left to discover. You don't have faith, you've just given up on looking for the answers. Thankfully we live in a world where you are the minority. We live in a world where most people won't say "we just aren't able to figure that out". 100 years ago lighting was the wrath of god and we would never understand it, lucky for us some people studied it and figured out electricity by abandoning the notion that "god just did it and we can't understand god" and made this conversation possible. Go ahead, keep following your god that exists in the gaps of science and watch him shrink away as those gaps are filled by those willing to keep looking for answers.