Free Will and Religion

[StoneThrower]

Originally Posted by UNA

As I understand it, if I choose wrong (if I don't believe) I'll suffer in Hell (eternity? another thread LOL)

Isn't that like saying "you can choose whatever you want but if I don't like the decision I've allowed you to make, I'm going to torture you forever" ...how fair is that?!

No, you need to study the character and nature of God.

God is Just and if you reject him you will get what you deserve and God will be glorified from it.
That said he would be more glorified if you repented. Either way He gets the glory.
It sounds as if you just can’t grasp that your really not a good person, that you are of your father the devil by nature, we all are, you have been breaking Gods Laws, claiming Lordship of your life, and rejecting so great a salvation. God laid down his life so justice could be served, and yet being merciful, giving you what you don’t deserve, satisfied the law on your behalf and you spit in his face and laugh about it? Till you understand your depravity and to whom you have sinned against you will not fear or have remorse and see a need for a savior. If you did you would run to the cross heartbroken about the pain and suffering that Christ endured on your behalf paying a debt you never could.

[StoneThrower]

Originally Posted by UNA

From what I know of the story (and the prophecies that preceded it) and the verse you referenced the answer would seem to be NO. If this is the case, then we don't have free will. Even if we usually have it, if God can take it away at anytime, even against our will...is it really free will?

Further, if Judas et al. was predestined to 'betray' Jesus, can he really be held responsible? Even further, if God made a man insane and this man murdered another, can he really be held responsible (by God...of course he can by us...public safety)? Does God condemn people for being as He made them or for doing what He predestined?

Food for thought

How about Judas had a wicked heart and God used what was all ready there? After all scripture tells us he was a thief tipping the till.
The same with Pharaoh he had no desire to truely repent he repented for the conquences of his actions not out of Godly sorrow. After A point God hardend his heart so he would be glorified, but he never caused the sin, only used it.

[Starman3000m]

Originally Posted by Zguy28

Starman, what do you make of this:

Luke 20
When Jesus had said these things, he departed and hid himself from them. 37 Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him, 38 so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled:

“Lord, who has believed what he heard from us,
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”

39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,

40 “He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their heart,
lest they see with their eyes,
and understand with their heart, and turn,
and I would heal them.”

If you read about the nature and character of those individuals you will see that they had been aware of and/or offered the opporunity of knowing God but they wanted to continue on their own wayward ways and in defiance. After so much calling, as in the case of those who continually reject God, He will allow them to be taken snare by Satan and imputes upon them even more hardness so that they will end up getting what they deserve which is the wrath of God that comes against an unbelieving and defiant soul.

Is this justice? Indeed it is since people are aware of the decisions they are making and through defiance and refusing to believe God, the eternal consequences will beset them.

Adam and Eve were aware of what God warned about. Yet they chose to defy God's warning and the rest is history.

God still loved mankind enough to have shed His Blood upon the cross as an Atonement for the sins of each individual who would accept His Plan of Salvation.

Adam and Eve failed to believe God and reaped the consequences.

Failure to believe God that He sent His Only Begotten Son (Jesus Christ) to take the punishment for our sins and receive Him as our personal Lord and Saviour will result in the consequences that God has warned about.

This world is still influenced very much by Satan and his minions in a final attempt to deceive and prevent mankind from comprehending the Glorious Gospel that is in Christ.

IOW: It is Satan who is responsible for keeping individuals from coming to the Truth through his various methods of deceptions and unbelief. (This includes false religions) When people choose to believe Satan's lies and remain in their comfort zones of deceptions and unbelief after being warned time and again God allows them to have their way.

The consequences have already been stated.

[hvp05]

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

Yes, most people will reject Him. Many of those who saw Him and His miracles DID reject Him. Can you imagine denying Him even after seeing Him walking on water, exorcising demons from people and raising people from the dead?

I have to admit I would be skeptical, especially if I was not able to witness these miracles personally. I would want scientific, and medical, and whatever proof that a miracle had been enacted at will. But is that not how we all should approach such a thing? Investing your faith in the first magician claiming to be a savior you see come along is how people get sucked into cults.

Maybe hate is too strong a word but their denial of who He is isn't love...

Maybe it's a matter of degrees wherein some folks have tougher standards of belief than others. What worked to convert you will not work for everyone. Shouldn't god know that?

Actually you're not off topic, IMO. Jesus DID have a choice and His choice was to die for us:

So what would have happened if Jesus had chosen to not break the law and end up on the cross? Once he was here, was he not obligated to follow through? Seems like a big catch-22 to me.

Originally Posted by Zguy28

Believing on Jesus Christ is throwing yourself at His mercy. How you equate that with following a code of rules is...

So one can give themselves to Jesus and the process is complete? According to most others you cannot support homosexuality, you cannot gamble, you cannot curse, you may not be able to drink, and a whole book (literally - ha) full of other things you can do and cannot do once becoming Christian. Should you break even a single one of these directives you will be left out of the kingdom.

Having a belief and faith first may be the most important factor, but it's certainly not the only factor to being accepted into the club.

[b23hqb]

God allows people to fall into their own snares. It is their choice, not God's.

There will come a day when God will say enough, and that will be it.

End of story.

Every individual decides. Not God. He will decide when it is time, and your decision will place you in His or eternity's status......

Don't waste your time. Now is the day of salvation (2 Cor 6:2, Isa 49:8 - now is the key word.

Time's flying past. Eternity is forever..........

[Zguy28]

Originally Posted by Starman3000m

If you read about the nature and character of those individuals you will see that they had been aware of and/or offered the opporunity of knowing God but they wanted to continue on their own wayward ways and in defiance. After so much calling, as in the case of those who continually reject God, He will allow them to be taken snare by Satan and imputes upon them even more hardness so that they will end up getting what they deserve which is the wrath of God that comes against an unbelieving and defiant soul.

Is this justice? Indeed it is since people are aware of the decisions they are making and through defiance and refusing to believe God, the eternal consequences will beset them.

Adam and Eve were aware of what God warned about. Yet they chose to defy God's warning and the rest is history.

God still loved mankind enough to have shed His Blood upon the cross as an Atonement for the sins of each individual who would accept His Plan of Salvation.

Adam and Eve failed to believe God and reaped the consequences.

Failure to believe God that He sent His Only Begotten Son (Jesus Christ) to take the punishment for our sins and receive Him as our personal Lord and Saviour will result in the consequences that God has warned about.

This world is still influenced very much by Satan and his minions in a final attempt to deceive and prevent mankind from comprehending the Glorious Gospel that is in Christ.

IOW: It is Satan who is responsible for keeping individuals from coming to the Truth through his various methods of deceptions and unbelief. (This includes false religions) When people choose to believe Satan's lies and remain in their comfort zones of deceptions and unbelief after being warned time and again God allows them to have their way.

The consequences have already been stated.

Where in that passage is Satan mentioned?

By the way, I got mixed up a bit, that was from John 12, not Luke 20. I was just seeing if anybody was paying attention.

But anyway, this is just turning into a re-hash of previous threads.

It comes down to priorities really. I put the priority on God and His sovereignty and you put the priority on man and his responsibility. I don't think either of us discount both, we just reverse them.

[ItalianScallion (Premo)]

Originally Posted by Zguy28

But what was your ultimate decision? And Moses and Jonah?

We eventually said yes to His call but not everyone does: "Many are called but few are chosen ".

Originally Posted by Zguy28

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of predestination.
I don't think you know what the role of "foreknowledge" is in Election.

I dont? Does this cover it for you: "For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son..." Romans 8

Originally Posted by Zguy28

Oh, you mean like you do constantly? I'm thinking of a blatant MIS-USE of Revelation 3:20 here. You are not the Alpha-Male here IS.

Like I do? Please show me how I've misused Rev 3v20, Mr Alpha male...

Originally Posted by Zguy28

Seriously though...
I posted almost an entire chapter. If that does not give context, what does?
Would you agree with this statement? "Whoever believes was predestined"

Your understanding of what you posted showed a contextual error.

If "whoever believes" means they've become true believers then yes, I agree.

[ItalianScallion (Premo)]

Originally Posted by hvp05

I have to admit I would be skeptical, especially if I was not able to witness these miracles personally. I would want scientific, and medical, and whatever proof that a miracle had been enacted at will. But is that not how we all should approach such a thing? Investing your faith in the first magician claiming to be a savior you see come along is how people get sucked into cults.

Today you WOULD be skeptical but things were very different back in Jesus' time. Just like a scientific study, the event is only as good as the person doing it. Jesus proved his divinity through his resurrection. It was the culmination of all that he did. No one else has ever been able to resurrect himself. Back then those people were more accountable because they saw what He did firsthand, so they had no excuse NOT to believe.

Originally Posted by hvp05

Maybe it's a matter of degrees wherein some folks have tougher standards of belief than others. What worked to convert you will not work for everyone. Shouldn't god know that?

He does know that and He freely gives people how ever much they need to know about Him...IF they really want to know about Him.

Originally Posted by hvp05

So what would have happened if Jesus had chosen to not break the law and end up on the cross? Once he was here, was he not obligated to follow through? Seems like a big catch-22 to me.

Jesus, being God, wasn't going to change His mind. If He would have, then all bets were off. He did struggle with this in the garden right before He was arrested but God strengthened Him for the task (Matthew 26v42).

Originally Posted by hvp05

So one can give themselves to Jesus and the process is complete? According to most others you cannot support homosexuality, you cannot gamble, you cannot curse, you may not be able to drink, and a whole book (literally - ha) full of other things you can do and cannot do once becoming Christian. Should you break even a single one of these directives you will be left out of the kingdom. Having a belief and faith first may be the most important factor, but it's certainly not the only factor to being accepted into the club.

Not really. Once a person comes to Christ, they need to learn just like we do when we're kids. As we grow up, we learn, we make mistakes, we fall and get back up. As far as that "book full of other things" goes, we TRY not to do those things but, if we do, God will forgive us.

We don't come to Christ and later become lost then later get saved again then lost and saved again. When we get saved we're saved forever. When we sin, our relationship with God is strained just like it is when we disobey our parents. We never stop being our parents kids but that relationship is strained because, since they love us, they now have to discipline us. Same with God...

[Starman3000m]

Originally Posted by Zguy28

Where in that passage is Satan mentioned?

By the way, I got mixed up a bit, that was from John 12, not Luke 20. I was just seeing if anybody was paying attention.

But anyway, this is just turning into a re-hash of previous threads.

It comes down to priorities really. I put the priority on God and His sovereignty and you put the priority on man and his responsibility. I don't think either of us discount both, we just reverse them.

The context of the Old Testament and New Testament Gospel Message makes it quite clear that there is an opposing spiritual force that prevents people from desiring to come to the knowledge of truth. The Bible points to the truth that people would rather love the world and the things in the world than to turn away from the world and turn to Jesus for Salvation. The Bible indicates which force is at work in this world to try to keep the Truth hidden from mankind.

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. (2 Corinthians 4:3-5)

However, Jesus came to open the eyes of those who are blind - not just physically during His time of miracles but spiritually blind by the deceptions of Satan. An individual must respond to the effectual calling of the Holy Spirit's testimony of Jesus but an individual can also turn away from and reject that effectual calling out of pride of life and love for the world more than wanting to love God.

The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. (Luke 4:18-20)

This is still the acceptable year (time) of the Lord in which we live today. This will be the day of Salvation for any individual who is willing to trust in God's Plan of Salvation that is Promised and found by inviting Christ to come into their life.

Jesus will not force His way into the life of someone who doesn't want Him in their life. He will accept a personal invitation from anyone who is sincere in the spiritual desire to know God and to know The Truth of who He is.

[PsyOps (Premo)]

Originally Posted by UNA

This is what I was taught (and believed) also. The problem I see is that the Bible says we are predestined, God chooses who will have salvation, who will choose him...

That’s not what this verse says at all. The passage you quoted is Paul talking about ‘us’ as in them the Apostles. You have to read the entire chapter and not parse out snippets that conform to your argument. We know Paul is talking about the Apostles because later he writes this: “In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ” (verses 11 and 12).

Then in verse 13 Paul writes: “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit…” In other words ‘When you believed”, making the choice.

It’s obvious God CHOSE (predestined) Christ. And it seems pretty obvious God predestined the selection of Jesus’ Apostles. He obviously chose Paul. And through this passage you’ve quoted it seems pretty obvious to me Paul is stating this; AND that we are not predestined. This is supported throughout other passages in the bible stating that we must ACCEPT Christ, open the door, believe. We must DO something in order to believe. We must make a choice.

It makes no sense that He would predestine certain people for salvation and others not, and place a savior in front of us to chose to believe or not believe in. If God has already chosen who is saved there is no need for a savior for us to either accept or deny.

I’d like to believe God is a logical God, of mercy and not a God of tricks and foolery.