Free Will and Religion

[Starman3000m]

Originally Posted by UNA

What if God doesn't call him? The sinful man never got the chance to accept God. Or do you believe God calls everyone? I don't see how this could be backed up with scripture.

Actually, UNA, The Bible documents it quite clearly that the "sinful" are the very reason why Jesus came to earth - to call sinners to repentance:

... Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” (Matthew 9:12-13; Mark 2:17; Luke 5:31-32)

God calls every individual:

God is calling Atheists and skeptics and those caught up in false religious doctrines every time the Gospel Message of Christ is brought to their attention. God's Plan of Salvation continues to be presented to all people whether in a gospel tract, prayer at a public gathering, Christian witness by friends and relatives, and even in these posts on somd.

The Bible proclaims that all mankind is sinful and their is none righteous. (Romans 3:10) Therefore, God indeed does call everyone to repent and place faith in His Plan of Salvation through Christ because He is willing that no one perish. (2 Peter 3:9)

[ItalianScallion (Premo)]

Originally Posted by UNA

Didn't miss anything...

Apparently you did, by your response below.

Originally Posted by UNA

We're not really talking about the choice of monogamy, or what to have for dinner for that matter. We're talking about what your Holy Book has to say about predestination and free will. God may foreknow a lot, there's nothing wrong with that. I 'foreknow' that my cat is going to hop onto my lap this evening and bug me to pet her, just because I know doesn't mean she's predestined to do this.

Not relevant to the issue here. You completely ignored the analogy. An animals' actions are not even comparable to God's predestining of humans.

Originally Posted by UNA

The Bible say's God has PREDETERMINED who will and will not hear the calling, receive mercy, glory. He has already decided who is saved and who isn't and I can't see anything that says otherwise (and if there is, it stands in contradiction which is a whole other issue )

There's your misunderstanding. God did NOT predetermine who would hear and who would not and He did not decide who would be saved or lost. A persons decision to follow God will cause their life's events to be orchestrated (predestined) so that God's will would be carried out by them.

If someone refuses to follow God, He is within His rights to harden their hearts, blind their eyes or deafen their ears at any time because He knows they will not follow Him. It takes two; His choice AND our choice is what makes God act in this matter.

Originally Posted by UNA

I know you say individual verses in the Bible can't be taken on their own, but if whoever wrote the Bible (God according to most Christians, or He at least inspired it) didn't mean "It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy." Romans 9:16 then why does the Bible say that? I don't see how that can mean anything other than what it says.

In context it means that no one is saved by their own efforts or desire and that God has the right to accept or reject anyone. He rejected me 3 different times when I prayed for His forgiveness. Why? He knew I didn't mean it! I wasn't sincere in what I was asking for. If we are serious about being saved, He will have mercy on us and forgive us and we'll become His children forever. On the other hand, if He calls someone and they say no, He will not have mercy on them, nor forgive them and might even harden their heart.

I didn't wake up one morning and simply decide that I wanted to be saved. I heard the story of Jesus and salvation because someone was kind enough to tell it to me. I decided that what I heard was very believable so I said OK to Gods' call. He finally had mercy on me and saved me and now I'm telling others about Him so they can be saved also.

Something to think about: Have you ever heard someone say: God is calling me but I don't want to be saved? Or: I want to be saved but God doesn't want me? These would be the likely cases if God did the choosing and we had no say in the matter. And why then should I waste my time praying, learning, witnessing and sharing this truth with anyone if God makes the choice for us all?

Originally Posted by UNA

So do you think that people like me, non-theists, hate God? Or have we not been called yet? Or (back to Romans 9) has God chosen not to call us? What's He waiting for?

You have to ask yourself if you hate God. Out of His love for you, in one horrific act, He gave up His life in place of yours so you could get to Heaven and, yet, you choose to ignore/deny that? To follow Him would prove your appreciation to Him. To refuse His love would be................You decide.

You have been called but you haven't responded properly. He's waiting for you to stop the denials and start believing. Tell Him you've been wrong, ask Him to forgive you and open your eyes to the truth. He's been talking to you for months on here. Start your journey now and your questions will get answered as you grow in your faith.

[Railroad]

I think maybe a little more emphasis should be placed on the role of time in this discussion, but even with that there would still be a debate going on about free will vs. predestination. There are seemingly contradictory verses which people use routinely to fuel the discussion in seminaries, and I doubt that the issue is ever truly resolved.

God's thoughts are not our thoughts, and His ways are not our ways, and His ways and plans are beyond our comprehension.

He has said that He is the "I AM." In the past, the present and future, "I AM" is God Almighty.

So okay, what came first, the chicken or the egg? It doesn't really matter, does it? But the answer is that God created chickens whose reproductive mechanism includes making and laying eggs.

I've talked this through with physicists and others and the issue of free will vs. predestination seems to get hung up on the way we people think about time. We see time as linear, with a definite past and future (although when the quantum guys get involved there may not actually be an instantaneous present).

I think there might be multiple approaches to reconciling these two conflicting concepts (free will and predestination), but any of them end up being largely conjecture. Here are a few I have thought of, and at various times I lean more toward one than the others, but it varies.

(1) God made each and every one of us; we are purpose-built, and He knows how we're wired because He designed us (See Jeremiah Chapter 1). He knows the decisions we will make because of the way we will react to cause and effect. Thus we make decisions of free will but He already knows what we'll decide. This approach to understanding the issue doesn't consider God's timelessness.

(2) With God there are causes and effects and actions and reactions, but because He exists in all times at once, He already knows the choices we will make. This is a very hard approach to understand because what's in the future for me is in the present (or past?) for Him.

(3) This is all an experiment in which God has induced an intricate and unpredictable sequence of events which will end when He terminates the test. As with (1) above, this doesn't consider God being the Alpha and Omega.

(4) This is a battleground, a war with satan in which the outcome has already been seen by God. In this case there are people who are satan's and people who are God's. The Bible describes the angels who aligned themselves with satan and became fallen angels who are evil, so one wonders if there are people in a similar situation. (I know from personal experience that on this battleground, the attacks come from all directions and they never cease). So although choices are made with eternal implications for the individuals who make them, the outcome of the war is already known.

This is an excellent thread, UNA, good topic.

[Starman3000m]

I believe that the reason for God allowing each individual a "free-will decision" is that it results in God receiving the glory, praise and honor from the person - not because God caused them to be that way (that would be insincere) but because the individual acknowledged their sinfulness, wanted to make changes in life, became aware of the consequences and chose to seek God's Guidance and Salvation through Christ for their personal life.

It would be totally insincere if you manipulated a person to accept you rather than have them accept you out of their sincere and genuine love and respect for you.

Predestination of souls is saying that God manipulates who will eventually repent and accept His Plan of Salvation while at the same time God manipulates who will reject His Plan of Salvation.

Then God imposes His Anger, Wrath and Condemnation to eternal death against those who rejected Him when they had no choice in the matter.
That's what Islam teaches and that's what Calvinism teaches.

The context of The Holy Bible concludes that the eternal fate of each individual is determined by the free-will of each individual.

Obey God or Disobey God; Accept Christ or Reject Christ.
That's what The New Testament Jesus taught.

There are also some who may "Believe in God" but yet they really "Don't Believe God" as is the case with Adam and Eve when they chose to believe a lie.

It is your choice.

[Railroad]

Originally Posted by Starman3000m

I believe that the reason for God allowing each individual a "free-will decision" is that it results in God receiving the glory, praise and honor from the person - not because God caused them to be that way (that would be insincere) but because the individual acknowledged their sinfulness, wanted to make changes in life, became aware of the consequences and chose to seek God's Guidance and Salvation through Christ for their personal life.

It would be totally insincere if you manipulated a person to accept you rather than have them accept you out of their sincere and genuine love and respect for you.

Predestination of souls is saying that God manipulates who will eventually repent and accept His Plan of Salvation while at the same time God manipulates who will reject His Plan of Salvation.

Then God imposes His Anger, Wrath and Condemnation to eternal death against those who rejected Him when they had no choice in the matter.
That's what Islam teaches and that's what Calvinism teaches.

The context of The Holy Bible concludes that the eternal fate of each individual is determined by the free-will of each individual.

Obey God or Disobey God; Accept Christ or Reject Christ.
That's what The New Testament Jesus taught.

There are also some who may "Believe in God" but yet they really "Don't Believe God" as is the case with Adam and Eve when they chose to believe a lie.

It is your choice.

That's a valid argument, Brother. How does it work in view of God already knowing the future? Is His plan an over-arching one that doesn't address individuals and their choices, so the view of the future doesn't go to that level of detail? Did He know in advance what choice you would make when He called you?

(By the way, I can't help but think He might be chuckling a bit while listening to us try to figure this out!)

[b23hqb]

Originally Posted by Railroad

That's a valid argument, Brother. How does it work in view of God already knowing the future? Is His plan an over-arching one that doesn't address individuals and their choices, so the view of the future doesn't go to that level of detail? Did He know in advance what choice you would make when He called you?

(By the way, I can't help but think He might be chuckling a bit while listening to us try to figure this out!)

I say He knew in advance, even before the foundations were set in place.

Omniscience and omnipresence does that, by definition. By transcending time beyond our comprehension, He can, is, was, in all places and time zones past, present, and future.

We as individuals do not know what He knows, cannot even begin to imagine what He knows.

The Bible preaches salvation as an individual choice, confession and acceptance of Jesus as Savior.

God wrote the Bible, and people need to figure Him in instead of just trying to figure Him out.

I believe this is an issue of personal choice that determines a person's eternity. Just because one thinks they have no chance at salvation because salvation was pre-determined/ordained/destinated, they can solve that by believing in the work of Christ on the cross.

[Starman3000m]

Originally Posted by Railroad

That's a valid argument, Brother. How does it work in view of God already knowing the future? Is His plan an over-arching one that doesn't address individuals and their choices, so the view of the future doesn't go to that level of detail? Did He know in advance what choice you would make when He called you?

(By the way, I can't help but think He might be chuckling a bit while listening to us try to figure this out!)

I have no doubt about the Omniscient (all-knowing) attribute of the Almighty God-Supreme Creator of all that there is. So, yes, I believe that God already knows in advance which decision each individual is going to make. However, that does not mean that God went ahead and made that choice for them at all. Otherwise it goes back to God's manipulation of making someone love and obey Him which would be an insincere form of love and not one of a genuine acceptance.

BTW: God could have created mankind to be like His Heavenly Host of angels who are perfect by His Design and who eternally adore and worship Him. However, God made us a different type of creation just as He also created a different class of angels from where Lucifer became prideful and resentful of God's position of Authority. Well, you know the rest of the story.

Meanwhile, mankind has been instilled with the individual qualities of reasoning and being taught to know right from wrong. We, thus, have the ability to choose to do either (right or wrong) in all sorts of circumstances of life. We are also taught, whether by parents, teachers or through personal experience what kind of consequences to expect when we choose to ignore any kind of warning that had been previously given.

The Bible states that God does not want anyone at all to perish. Meanwhile, God is extra-patient with each individual as He tries to offer them time and again the opportunity and the way to escape His Wrath on the day of His Judgment and that is through placing faith in Christ as Saviour.

Conclusion: (It's Predetermination - Not Predestination)

God has pre-determined that whoever chooses to believe and place faith in His Plan of Salvation will not perish but will have God's Forgiveness and His Promise of receiving everlasting life. It's God's Promise!

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (John 6:23)

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. (John 3:16-18)

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, (Romans 8:1-3)

It's your choice.

[Railroad]

Originally Posted by Starman3000m

I have no doubt about the Omniscient (all-knowing) attribute of the Almighty God-Supreme Creator of all that there is. So, yes, I believe that God already knows in advance which decision each individual is going to make. However, that does not mean that God went ahead and made that choice for them at all. Otherwise it goes back to God's manipulation of making someone love and obey Him which would be an insincere form of love and not one of a genuine acceptance.

BTW: God could have created mankind to be like His Heavenly Host of angels who are perfect by His Design and who eternally adore and worship Him. However, God made us a different type of creation just as He also created a different class of angels from where Lucifer became prideful and resentful of God's position of Authority. Well, you know the rest of the story.

Meanwhile, mankind has been instilled with the individual qualities of reasoning and being taught to know right from wrong. We, thus, have the ability to choose to do either (right or wrong) in all sorts of circumstances of life. We are also taught, whether by parents, teachers or through personal experience what kind of consequences to expect when we choose to ignore any kind of warning that had been previously given.

The Bible states that God does not want anyone at all to perish. Meanwhile, God is extra-patient with each individual as He tries to offer them time and again the opportunity and the way to escape His Wrath on the day of His Judgment and that is through placing faith in Christ as Saviour.

Conclusion: (It's Predetermination - Not Predestination)

God has pre-determined that whoever chooses to believe and place faith in His Plan of Salvation will not perish but will have God's Forgiveness and His Promise of receiving everlasting life. It's God's Promise!



It's your choice.

Good answer! Let me cogitate on that a while.

[Railroad]

God wrote the Bible, and people need to figure Him in instead of just trying to figure Him out.

Excellent turn of phrase! I'll have to remember that.

[PsyOps (Premo)]

Originally Posted by UNA

*sigh*

It doesn't matter who he was talking about. If God EVER predestines ANYTHING our 'free will' is useless. If He may take it away at anytime, how do we ever know if He does? How can we trust our actions are our own rather that God's?

You very well could be right. Does this make God any less God? Or is this some sort of intent to prove there is no God? Besides, this is not what defines an agnostic. Someone who is agnostic is open to the possibility. The question to you is… Do you believe you have free will? Do you believe someone/something is pulling your strings? Whatever your answer, as an agnostic, answers your question about free will. Nothing I, or anyone else answers, is going to change your mind.

The one thing I concluded a long time ago is, if there is a God, it doesn’t much matter whether we believe these things or not (things like free will). If it is then it is. If it isn’t then it isn’t. We’ll never really know in this life now will we? I do know that I am living my life and making choices and doing things. I believe they are MY choices. It’s my belief that God did choose certain people for fulfill His will. It’s my belief that He gave us choices, and this is clear in the bible.

“Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed…” – John 3:18

THAT is a choice. As I stated, it makes no sense for God to have predetermined things and also tell us to make a choice.

Originally Posted by UNA

Care to elaborate?