Free Will and Religion

[UNA]

Came across this in the "Salvation: A Gift To You by The Grace of God" thread...

Originally Posted by Railroad

God also knows in advance who will accept the gift and who will reject it. The ones who accept it are among the chosen, adopted into the ultimate Royal Family.

Originally Posted by Railroad

Well, not everyone is chosen to understand this stuff fully, either. Putting water in the trough doesn't make all the horses thirsty.

So it isn't our choice? I've been reading up on the Christian concept of "free-will" in the Bible and I'm curious; where do you see this concept in the Bible?

I have my own thoughts on what the Bible says...but I want to hear what people think first.

And in the interest of full disclosure (for those that may not know) I am an agnostic (for lack of a better word and the sake of simplicity).

[b23hqb]

Originally Posted by UNA

Came across this in the "Salvation: A Gift To You by The Grace of God" thread...

So it isn't our choice? I've been reading up on the Christian concept of "free-will" in the Bible and I'm curious; where do you see this concept in the Bible?

I have my own thoughts on what the Bible says...but I want to hear what people think first.

And in the interest of full disclosure (for those that may not know) I am an agnostic (for lack of a better word and the sake of simplicity).

It is completely your choice. God is omnipresent. Omniscient. He transcends time. He knows all things, past, present, and future. He is time. He is, was, and will be.

Therefore, He knows your choice before you even existed, but that does not alter your decision. You don't know what He knows.

You decide. Only you. Your consequences, and only yours.

Your choice.

[UNA]

Originally Posted by b23hqb

It is completely your choice. God is omnipresent. Omniscient. He transcends time. He knows all things, past, present, and future. He is time. He is, was, and will be.

Therefore, He knows your choice before you even existed, but that does not alter your decision. You don't know what He knows.

You decide. Only you. Your consequences, and only yours.

Your choice.

This is what I was taught (and believed) also. The problem I see is that the Bible says we are predestined, God chooses who will have salvation, who will choose him...

Originally Posted by Ephesians 1:4,5 (KJV)

"According as [Christ] hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will...."

[b23hqb]

Originally Posted by UNA

This is what I was taught (and believed) also. The problem I see is that the Bible says we are predestined, God chooses who will have salvation, who will choose him...

Same thing as I stated previously.

God does not determine who is saved or not. We do. I do. You do.

He knows our personal choice in advance. But that does not mean He determines our choice.

I do. You do. Our responsibility. Not His.

Individual, each of us. Our choice.

[Starman3000m]

Originally Posted by UNA

I have my own thoughts on what the Bible says...but I want to hear what people think first.

And in the interest of full disclosure (for those that may not know) I am an agnostic (for lack of a better word and the sake of simplicity).

Thanks UNA, good topic. If people do not have free-will, then it seems pointless for God to ask people to make a choice to begin with. Rather, it seems that God does lay out His Plan and allows each individual the opportunity to decide what to choose / what to accept:




(1) God called upon the Jewish people to make a choice:

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: (Deuteronomy 30:19)

(2) Christ offers Forgiveness of sin and provides Salvation through His Atoning Blood for those who believe Him and accept Him:

He came into the very world he created, but the world didn’t recognize him. He came to his own people, and even they rejected him. But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God. They are reborn—not with a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan, but a birth that comes from God.
(John 1:10-13)

I believe when Paul refers to being "predestinated" he is referring to his role and the role of the other Apostles having been pre-ordained/chosen/predestined to be among the key players that would be given the task of spreading the Gospel Message of Christ to the world, i.e., The Great Commission.

The rest of the world was/is given the choice to hear the Gospel Message of Jesus Christ preached and decide whether they loved the world more than God or whether they loved God more than the world.

There is only one decision that even "fence-sitters" will have to eventually make.

Here Is The Will Of God:

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

It's Your Choice.

[Zguy28]

The other side of the coin is:

Total depravity - Theopedia, an encyclopedia of Biblical Christianity

Total inability

In John 6 Jesus said that, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him... This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

Apart from Christ, man is foolish, dead in sin (Ephesians 2:1-3), enslaved to sin (Romans 6:17), and following the spirit of the power of the air (Ephesians 2:2).

"A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14).

His wisdom is demonic and earthly (James 3:15).

He cannot hear the word of Christ and God (John 8:43, 47).

He is not able to subject his flesh to the law of God (Romans 8:7-8).

Just as people cannot change the color of their skin, those who are accustomed to doing evil cannot do good (Jeremiah 13:23).

Every intention of the thoughts of man's heart are only evil continually (Genesis 6:5). The intention of man's heart is evil from his youth (Genesis 8:21).

Surely we were brought forth in iniquity, and in sin were we conceived (Psalms 51:5)!

Contrary to the doctrine of universal prevenient grace, all of these passages show that, apart from being in Christ, our total depravity is actual and not hypothetical.


But ultimately it's an "in-house" discussion within Christianity. What matters is that people get saved through the gospel. Why and how are an internal debate.

[ItalianScallion (Premo)]

You guys are beating all around the bush. UNA simply needs a better understanding of how predestination does NOT affect our free will.

The 2 best ones are in Matthew 23v37 & Revelation 3v20.

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing".

20 "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me".

Being "Predestined" in no way stops us from doing what we want to do. We act according to OUR choice to follow God.

[Hessian]

A discussion on Predestination and posters are not mentioning Calvin OR Arminius.

I KNOW...that churches have written into their constituions which side of the doctrinal question they are on.

Methodists, Assembly of God (All Pentecostals), and Nazarenes...firmly reject Calvin...

Baptist (Most), Presbyterian, Lutheran, Reformed (most), & Fundamantalist reject Arminius....

I suspect that a stronger BIBLICAL case can be made for Calvin (but my Pentecostal wife would definately disagree!)

So...YES,...this is an "In House" discussion.
I have also heard years ago of an attempted reinterpretation of the issue called "Regency"...but,...I do not recall the fundamental approach.

Believers have a VERY hard time sorting out the "Who-soever-will"...vs..."For those He foreknew, he also predestined."

Carry on....

[Zguy28]

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

You guys are beating all around the bush. UNA simply needs a better understanding of how predestination does NOT affect our free will.

The 2 best ones are in Matthew 23v37 & Revelation 3v20.

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing".

I don't know one Calvinist who believes man is not held responsible for his sins. Do you?

20 "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me".

Being "Predestined" in no way stops us from doing what we want to do. We act according to OUR choice to follow God.

Who can choose without God's enabling though?

Who can come to Father without Him drawing them?

Not me. Not you.

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
Romans 9:16-24

Why does God give any of us sinners mercy? We certainly don't deserve it. None of us do.

Yet He gives.

God is a free moral agent. He owes us nothing, not even free-will, as if there is even such a thing from the perspective of an omnipresent God for whom time doesn't actually flow, but rather is eternally visible. Think about it.

Yet still He gives mercy.

Why?

Because we are sinners and incapable. "No one seeks God, not one."

[UNA]

Originally Posted by b23hqb

Same thing as I stated previously.

God does not determine who is saved or not. We do. I do. You do.

He knows our personal choice in advance. But that does not mean He determines our choice.

I do. You do. Our responsibility. Not His.

Individual, each of us. Our choice.

Then how does the free will believing Christian interpret this? I just don't understand how this verse (and verses like it) can be reconciled with a belief in free will...

Originally Posted by Ephesians 1:4,5 (KJV)

"According as [Christ] hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will...."