Babies

[PsyOps (Premo)]

Originally Posted by Zguy28

Do you believe in a physical bodily resurrection?

Revelation talks about this, and I can't claim to understand what this will look like. I can't and wont dispute it. If I physically die at 80, will I be physically be raised up looking like an 80 year old? If not, what age? What will we all look like when God raises our dead bodies? Does it really matter? It's our souls He is saving.

But our rebirth will be a spiritual one. It's our souls that get redemed, not our bodies.

[Zguy28]

Originally Posted by PsyOps

Revelation talks about this, and I can't claim to understand what this will look like. I can't and wont dispute it. If I physically die at 80, will I be physically be raised up looking like an 80 year old? If not, what age? What will we all look like when God raises our dead bodies? Does it really matter? It's our souls He is saving.

But our rebirth will be a spiritual one. It's our souls that get redemed, not our bodies.

Not just Revelation. It is in the Gospels and the letters from Paul (Romans 8, 1 Cor. 15, etc.).

One day all of creation will be re-made, Christ redeemed creation, not just people.

[PsyOps (Premo)]

Originally Posted by Zguy28

Not just Revelation. It is in the Gospels and the letters from Paul (Romans 8, 1 Cor. 15, etc.).

One day all of creation will be re-made, Christ redeemed creation, not just people.

How did Jesus explain this to Nicodemus?

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” – John 3:5-8

When we talk about being born again, being saved, accepting Christ so we will never die, this is the saving of our souls, our spirits. What happens in the end days is really something different in terms of what God plans for this earth and how He wants it to look post Revelation. I don’t claim to understand what any of this looks like, but the concern here and now is what is meant by our salvation.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Zguy28

If death is the wage of sin, why do newborn's die?

Now I know the second one can be explored with concepts of spiritual vs. physical death, but that cannot account for physical death being the result of sin.

John McArthur said this in that article you referenced:

"If infants were not sinful, if they were not morally corrupt, then they wouldn't die."

Now I'm not going to argue about original sin, and by that extension it bringing physical death. But I do want to explore why one would think that moral corruption is a prerequesite for death.

As mentioned, there are only two in the bible that has not seen death, that of Enoch and Elijah. I have no idea what to make of these two since they seemed to have been translated directly to heaven. One wonders about the sorietology involved in these cases.

But the claim that if infants were not sinful, not morally corrupt, then they would not die is directly contradicted by the fact that Jesus, who was neither sinful nor morally corrupt, did in fact die.


Death only comes because life is suspended. All life comes from God, our Creator, who breathed life into Adam, and by extension, breaths life into us.

The reason sin brings death is because God by reason of sin, suspends life from us, His Sustaining Life.

Why, then, was life suspended from Christ, who never sinned, yet experienced the same death as us all? Because God suspended His Life from Christ, at least for a time, due to the fact that Jesus bore our sins on the Cross.

Fact is, Jesus died because He had put on mortal flesh. But that mortal flesh is unable to sustain the Life of God. When Jesus arose, then the corruptable form changed to an incorruptable form.

Salvation is promised, but won't be fully realized until we put on that incorruptable form. Adam and Eve were banned from the Garden because they could not put on the incorruptable form until sin was dealt with.

"..lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:" - Genesis 3:22

I've always wondered what would have happened is Adam and Eve were allowed to eat of the Tree of Life in the fallen state they were in. Would they have been morally corrupt forever? It seems that the Tree of Life ought to have given them some kind of perpetual existence, but apart from God.

Do you know of any other kind of being in the Bible, who had at once been in communion with God, but fell, and that have had some kind of perpetual existence, but apart from God? I know of one at least. And he happened to be present in the Garden as well.

[Starman3000m]

Originally Posted by Dondi

...Adam and Eve were banned from the Garden because they could not put on the incorruptable form until sin was dealt with.

"..lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:" - Genesis 3:22

I've always wondered what would have happened is Adam and Eve were allowed to eat of the Tree of Life in the fallen state they were in. Would they have been morally corrupt forever? It seems that the Tree of Life ought to have given them some kind of perpetual existence, but apart from God.

Do you know of any other kind of being in the Bible, who had at once been in communion with God, but fell, and that have had some kind of perpetual existence, but apart from God? I know of one at least. And he happened to be present in the Garden as well.

Good points Dondi.

[StoneThrower]

Originally Posted by Zguy28

You know, something I've thought about:

If babies are born sinners, and in need of Christ's blood, but it is by foreseen choice that one is saved, what happens when they die before they are old enough for a conscious choice for Jesus?

I guess that goes into the age of accountability...HA!

The other thought that comes to mind is, since God is timeless, seeing everything simultaneously in eternity, how does God see us when we die? Does he see us or judge us as a 30 year old, or if a baby dies, does He see them at the judgment as a baby or some other form similar to an angel?

According to the Evangelical Pope childern that are not old enough to know right from wrong, are given a free pass as they dont qualify for Gods plan of salvation of repenting of their sin and putting their faith and trust in Jesus Christ ALONE for thier salvation.

[StoneThrower]

Originally Posted by hvp05

But hell is an acceptable punishment once the kid has become 'accountable'. What I find interesting is not so much that babies are left out of hell but that those who die after barely reaching the age of accountability will go to hell.

By some opinions, this age could be 2, 3, or 4 years. Consider a 7 year old. Do you think the typical 7 y.o. is able to make wise decisions for their life? Does a 7 y.o. have the tools to navigate the world's challenges successfully?

If we don't think a 7 y.o. can do that in the physical world, how are they supposed to get anywhere near comprehending the spiritual world? This forum is but one tiny example of grown adults who can't get this spiritual stuff straight... but a toddler is expected to understand god, sin, and salvation.

The age of accountabilty is no where in scripture!

[ItalianScallion (Premo)]

Originally Posted by hvp05

By that reasoning, there should be no elderly non-Christians; conversely, kids in very religious families, and therefore having a high probability of themselves being Christian, should not die. Doesn't causing/allowing a kid "god knows... will never follow him" to die sort of cut off the whole free will thing? I thought we all had a choice and a chance to be saved at any time, despite foreknowledge.

"Despite foreknowledge? No elderly non-Christians"? Where did you come up with them? Gods' foreknowledge is perfect; No mistakes will ever be made by it. Chances happen every day of our lives until we accept Christ or we die. Every accountable person gets many chances to choose. God doesn't cut off anyone's free will even if they die young after they reach their age of accountability. They had their chances and MUST be fully accountable to be judged by God so He will make sure the accountable ones are.

God won't always shorten a persons life because they refuse salvation. They live so as to be given enough chances to choose against God (even though only one chance will suffice). Then, when they die, the choice was theirs and not Gods'.

Originally Posted by hvp05

So you think a 4 y.o. can really comprehend god, sin, etc. Little kids say and believe a lot of funny things. Little kids are inclined to believe animals can talk and that superheroes exist because they see them on t.v. regularly. You said of your own past that god did not accept your pleas several times because he knew you were not genuine, so simply because a kid says, "I love Jesus because he died for me!" should not be enough to qualify.

You're limiting Gods' power since He alone knows the child's heart. He can absolutely know if that child will be sincere (in the future) and enable that 4 year old child to grow in an understanding of Him. A childs' love is more pure than ours will ever be. Kids trust completely because they don't have all the "hang ups & pretenses" that come with adulthood. Then, as they grow, their faith gets stronger. Besides, Jesus said we should trust in Him with "childlike faith".

Originally Posted by hvp05

Hello, Mr. Reading Comprehension! I am saying it does not equate how a baby can be completely innocent but a toddler is to be held accountable. While we're opening the foreknowledge flood gate: if god knows this kid will not follow him and allows the kid to die, why would god have created the kid in the first place? Does that not seem more cruel than helpful or loving?

Not at all. God isn't responsible for their choice. He gives them life and many chances to follow Him. He even took the punishment for their sins and died in their place so they can't say He's unfair. It's their choice. I can safely say that this "age of accountability" in not discernable by humans. So when you say a toddler vs a baby, it's up to God to determine if that child is truly culpable for his choices. And I believe God gives them every benefit of the doubt.

As far as why He didn't just not create those who would be lost, you'll have to ask Him...

[Starman3000m]

Originally Posted by StoneThrower

The age of accountabilty is no where in scripture!

Jewish tradition holds that children become responsible for their actions when they reach the age of 12 - for girls, and 13 for boys. Thus the bat mitzvah and bar mitzvah celebrations, respectively.

The Holy Bible does appear to point out that there is a period in a young child's life where they are unaware of consciously knowing right from wrong:

But your assistant, Joshua son of Nun, will enter it. Encourage him, because he will lead Israel to inherit it. And the little ones that you said would be taken captive, your children who do not yet know good from bad—they will enter the land. I will give it to them and they will take possession of it. (Deuteronomy 1:38-39)

I would tend to believe that God has made a special provision of Grace for the children just as Christ exemplified when His disciples tried to keep the kids from coming up next to Him. (Matthew 19:14; Mark 10:14; Luke 18:16)

[ItalianScallion (Premo)]

Originally Posted by StoneThrower

The age of accountabilty is no where in scripture!

Huh???

Deuteronomy 1 v 39
Isaiah 7 v 15, 16
Ezekiel 28 v 15
Luke 12 v 47, 48
Romans 2 v 12-15
1 Peter 4 v 5, 6