Hamas

[hotcoffee]

Originally Posted by cheezgrits

Sorry for the poor responding on my part..I see what you mean.

Generally do take Israel's side on this, but honestly, they have been fighting over the same land forever.

Indians were comparable to the Jewish community to me. The Indians were rounded up, killed if they resisted and placed on reservations where still today they live in pretty rough conditions.

Jews aren't required to live in camps anymore just like Indians can live and move about freely.

Do not see the current situation fulfilling any prophecy.

There have been cease fires but since Israel took over the land in 1948 [due to a British agreement] and became a state in 1967 there has been no real peace agreement. Since the beginning, when Israel cleaned out the land to take it over, the Jewish Nation has been plotted against. Other nations want to completely destroy the Jewish Nation.

The empathy I have for both sides is only for the families who are loosing loved ones. I side firmly with Israel in this war.

Starman gave you the biblical verses. I'm just saying this needs to be watched. If a peace agreement is reached it will bring in the 7 years of Tribulation. Three and a half years into the agreement, the antichrist will break it by declaring himself god in the new temple. He will require everyone alive to bow down and worship him.

I really wish that everyone would read the book. I really enjoyed the story as it progressed and now I have some understanding of what is going on. It makes the current events much more interesting.

I also pray [I really prayed] that everyone reading this will accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior before the rapture. Cheezgrits, I don't believe you have to give up your reverence to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. I believe it will make your reverence even more intense and enjoyable. There are Messianic Jews.... why not Messianic American Indians? Not forcing it on you.... just really praying for it.

[cheezgrits]

Cease fire reached today, there have been peace accords and agreements before, just don't see this as a sign of the tribulation.

But, then again...

[cheezgrits]

Oh, and hotcoffee, as I said in another post, I truly do appreciate your prayers. I am a fallible human, so the more good people thinking of me and praying for me the better!

And for what it's worth, I ask my ancestors to grant you a spirit guide to walk with you on the Red Road, for I believe you truly are walking the sacred path.

Adadoligi, Sister.

[hotcoffee]

Originally Posted by cheezgrits

Cease fire reached today, there have been peace accords and agreements before, just don't see this as a sign of the tribulation.

But, then again...

The cease fire is temporary.... The peace agreement we are waiting for will be Israel and the world living in peace and security.

Did you see the marching and rallies in the streets of Gaza? That's a signal this is not the peace agreement that will come.

The reason you haven't seen the signs of the tribulation yet.... is simple.... it hasn't happened yet.

IMHO we're close tho..... in our generation....

[Zguy28]

Originally Posted by hotcoffee

The cease fire is temporary.... The peace agreement we are waiting for will be Israel and the world living in peace and security.

Did you see the marching and rallies in the streets of Gaza? That's a signal this is not the peace agreement that will come.

The reason you haven't seen the signs of the tribulation yet.... is simple.... it hasn't happened yet.

IMHO we're close tho..... in our generation....

Or maybe... it's been happening all along. Hard to tell. What John, and the church during the reign of Nero and Domitian, suffered was unimaginable by today's Western congregations.

Revelation 1:9
I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

[Homesick]

Some peace deal. Israel still being fired upon....

[hotcoffee]

Originally Posted by Zguy28

Or maybe... it's been happening all along. Hard to tell. What John, and the church during the reign of Nero and Domitian, suffered was unimaginable by today's Western congregations.

Revelation 1:9
I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

No we're not there yet. The tribulation will be much much much much much-to-infinity worse than anything we see to day or have seen. Billions of people will die within a few years.

The second part [the bowls] will be horrific beyond our worst nightmares.... it's not here yet...

[Starman3000m]

Originally Posted by Zguy28

Or maybe... it's been happening all along. Hard to tell. What John, and the church during the reign of Nero and Domitian, suffered was unimaginable by today's Western congregations.

Revelation 1:9
I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

No doubt that the early Church endured periods of tribulation as Jesus warned them about. There is a present-day "tribulation" going on right now within Islamic countries where Christians are undergoing intense persecutions and beheadings for their faith in Christ. Many Americans are not aware because the main stream media doesn't give that part of the news much attention. I'd say that these are part of the "beginning of sorrows" that lead up to the end-times Tribulation Period - so things are going to get worse as we go along.

Remember that Jesus warned of a Great Tribulation that would happen in the end times just before His Return Also, Revelation gives the prophetic account of that Great Tribulation period which is yet to happen and from where the 144,000 Jewish men (12,000 from each Israeli Tribe) will be martyrd. They are then resurrected to reign with Christ during the Millennial Period.

So, yes, the Early Church endured a time of tribulation but not THE Great Tribulation that will yet come upon this world at the end of days. The accounts can be understood in complete context when reading the entire chapters of Matthew, Chapter 24 and Revelation, Chapter 7.

Here are some snippets:

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Matthew 24:21)

(regarding the 144,000 Jewish men)

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Revelation 7:14)

[Zguy28]

Originally Posted by Starman3000m

No doubt that the early Church endured periods of tribulation as Jesus warned them about. There is a present-day "tribulation" going on right now within Islamic countries where Christians are undergoing intense persecutions and beheadings for their faith in Christ. Many Americans are not aware because the main stream media doesn't give that part of the news much attention. I'd say that these are part of the "beginning of sorrows" that lead up to the end-times Tribulation Period - so things are going to get worse as we go along.

Remember that Jesus warned of a Great Tribulation that would happen in the end times just before His Return Also, Revelation gives the prophetic account of that Great Tribulation period which is yet to happen and from where the 144,000 Jewish men (12,000 from each Israeli Tribe) will be martyrd. They are then resurrected to reign with Christ during the Millennial Period.

So, yes, the Early Church endured a time of tribulation but not THE Great Tribulation that will yet come upon this world at the end of days. The accounts can be understood in complete context when reading the entire chapters of Matthew, Chapter 24 and Revelation, Chapter 7.

Here are some snippets:

We've been down this road several times. You claim it is a fact that it will happen in the future, because you are a futurist. I don't discount that there MAY be a future time of unprecedented intensity in persecution. However, I do not take it as a fact that I know it for certain. The bible is not clear enough on when or how.

Matthew 24 proves nothing except that's your interpretation. Many Christians believe it only refers to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. I believe that it does ONLY refer to it. But I could be wrong.

When somebody goes from "this most likely refers to..." to claiming specifics like this and they know it for a fact, in reference to apocalyptic prophecy, it reveals something.

Be honest with the text, don't impose your own, or somebody else's presupposition onto it.

The mere fact that Jesus mentions the Jewish Sabbath observance in Matthew 24 shows that it was most likely a reference to Jerusalem and the Jews of that time. Then when you read Luke's account (Luke 21) of the same conversation between Jesus and the disciples, it becomes pretty compelling.

Luke 21:5-7 ESV And while some were speaking of the temple, how it was adorned with noble stones and offerings, he said, 6 "As for these things that you see, the days will come when there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down." 7 And they asked him, "Teacher, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when these things are about to take place?"

Here we see the topic of the conversation and the disciples question. The temple being destroyed and them asking when will it happen and what signs will accompany this mighty event?

Luke 21:8-26 ESV And he said, "See that you are not led astray. For many will come in my name, saying, 'I am he!' and, 'The time is at hand!' Do not go after them. 9 And when you hear of wars and tumults, do not be terrified, for these things must first take place, but the end will not be at once." 10 Then he said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, and in various places famines and pestilences. And there will be terrors and great signs from heaven. 12 But before all this they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors for my name's sake. 13 This will be your opportunity to bear witness. 14 Settle it therefore in your minds not to meditate beforehand how to answer, 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which none of your adversaries will be able to withstand or contradict. 16 You will be delivered up even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and some of you they will put to death. 17 You will be hated by all for my name's sake. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 By your endurance you will gain your lives. 20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. 23 Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 25 "And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, 26 people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

There was mighty upheaval in the 60's AD. And from the Jewish standpoint, the world would seem like it was coming to an end, which for the Jews it practically was. The center of their culture, the temple, was going to be destroyed.

And lest you say this refers to a time in the future, do you believe that you will be locked up in a synagogue for being a Christian?

So again, not discounting a future intensifying of persecution as a possibility, but the plain reading of the texts seem to indicate, when taken together that it is something ongoing throughout the "end times" (which Paul clearly says is the entire time from Christ's ascension to His return).

[Starman3000m]

Originally Posted by Zguy28

We've been down this road several times. You claim it is a fact that it will happen in the future, because you are a futurist. I don't discount that there MAY be a future time of unprecedented intensity in persecution. However, I do not take it as a fact that I know it for certain. The bible is not clear enough on when or how.

Well, my friend, The Bible does prophesy that in the end-times scenario of the Great Tribulation, there will be Two (2) Witnesses evangelizing during that time and kind-of being a thorn in the side to the system of antichrist. The Bible prophesies that the anti-christ system will be headed up by the anti-christ and the false prophet who miraculously performs signs and wonders that deceive nations.

Further, the same prophetic scenario indicates that the Two Witnesses will then be killed by antichrist, all the world will see and rejoicing will take place throughout the world because of their death. Subsequently, the Two Witnesses resurrect from the dead and are taken up to Heaven.

Hmmm... do you think that has happened yet? If so, could you state any previous time period in history when Bible "scholars" you trust in may say that happened?

Would you like me to cite the context of specific Bible Scriptures that back up the prophecy of a yet-to-happen "Great Tribulation" and then you can decide for yourself?