Is it possible...

[StoneThrower]

Originally Posted by libby

Well, you can't have it both ways, IS. A person can, one moment at a time, one choice at a time, choose God, if they have free will.

Hi Libby,
We don't choose God that solves it, man is dead in sin and can do nothing he's dead, not sick. But God rich in mercy chooses us, than he calls us and woos us, were we take a closer look at him, then without violating our free will our eyes are open and we turn to him, not because he made us, but that in however long it took, we finally see the goodness of God and desire him.

Think about it in terms of human love like beauty and the beast with time she choose to love what once repulsed her.

[libby]

StoneThrower,
I appreciate your thoughtful responses.

I think what you are referring to is not being born without sin, but that some believe in Holy Perfection

"Christian perfection (also known as perfect love; heart purity; the baptism of the Holy Spirit; the fullness of the blessing; Christian holiness; the second blessing; the second work of grace; and entire sanctification) is a doctrine of the Holiness movement which holds that the heart of the regenerant (born-again) Christian may attain a state of holiness in which believers are made free from original sin, or depravity, and where there is a total love for God and others wrought by the infilling of the Holy Spirit."

that once you are saved it possible under the right conditions to no longer sin. Charles Wesley believed in this although he said he never obtained it. There was another famous person who embraced it as well but confessed he never obtained it. I am not aware of anyone today propagating this belief but Wesleyan was one that used to. He was wrong though as our sanctification is not complete until we are dead and become glorified.

Because Protestant theologies differ, I guess I don't know if you and I are talking about the same thing.
Do you, personally, as a Protestant, believe in Original Sin? Not that that really has much bearing on the question at hand, because I'm talking about [what-Catholics-call] actual sin.
We have an inclination to sin because of Original Sin, our fallen human nature. That is how I describe it as a Catholic. However, we also have free will. Because of that free will, and by the graces we receive through sacraments and prayer, I believe, in theory, it is possible to live a sinless life. Again, I am speaking of actual sin. As a Catholic I believe we are all born in that Original Sin, so yes, we need a Savior and that Savior is Jesus Christ.
I object to IS's take on this because I think it denies free will. Perhaps you can do a better job explaining, if you agree with him that there is no such thing as being able to avoid all actual sin.

[libby]

Originally Posted by StoneThrower

Hi Libby,
We don't choose God that solves it, man is dead in sin and can do nothing he's dead, not sick. But God rich in mercy chooses us, than he calls us and woos us, were we take a closer look at him, then without violating our free will our eyes are open and we turn to him, not because he made us, but that in however long it took, we finally see the goodness of God and desire him.

Think about it in terms of human love like beauty and the beast with time she choose to love what once repulsed her.

I meant that we choose to do His Will, not our own.

[Radiant1]

Originally Posted by StoneThrower

Because a mans seed wasnt involved and the Holy spirit came upon her that is why Jesus was born without an Adamic nature.

Mary confessed that she was a sinner in need of a savior.

We agree Jesus did not have a sin nature (if He was God it would be impossible); however, He received His humanity through Mary. If what you say was the case, then Jesus was not a human at all.

Mary rejoiced in her savior. Was she subject to original sin (a sin nature)? Yes; however, she was saved from that at her conception (see analogy previously posted). Did she commit actual sin? No; nowhere in scripture does she or anyone else state she was a sinner. You need to be careful about reading God's Word with your presuppositions and bias'.

[hotcoffee]

Originally Posted by Radiant1

We agree Jesus did not have a sin nature (if He was God it would be impossible); however, He received His humanity through Mary. If what you say was the case, then Jesus was not a human at all.

Mary rejoiced in her savior. Was she subject to original sin (a sin nature)? Yes; however, she was saved from that at her conception (see analogy previously posted). Did she commit actual sin? No; nowhere in scripture does she or anyone else state she was a sinner. You need to be careful about reading God's Word with your presuppositions and bias'.

I don't believe all that at all.... goes against what I read.... but then again... I'm only a lay person...

[foodcritic]

Originally Posted by Radiant1

We agree Jesus did not have a sin nature (if He was God it would be impossible); however, He received His humanity through Mary. If what you say was the case, then Jesus was not a human at all.

Mary rejoiced in her savior. Was she subject to original sin (a sin nature)? Yes; however, she was saved from that at her conception (see analogy previously posted). Did she commit actual sin? No; nowhere in scripture does she or anyone else state she was a sinner. You need to be careful about reading God's Word with your presuppositions and bias'.

It is impossible to not sin. The fall of Adam meant that the world was now subject to it as a result. ALL of humanity suffers under it. Death,disease anger, jealousy ...you name it. Eating meat, eathquakes EVERYTHING is a result of the fall.

People are born in to this world in sin. Baby to grandpa. Mary was no different nor Noah or Abraham. Even Adam and Eve were born with out sin. It's their freewill to choose sin and that act turned the whole world upside down. Here is a thought. What if Mary was just the vessel? Maybe the immaculate conception was did not include Mary's egg? What if it was all just God using Mary?

[Radiant1]

Originally Posted by hotcoffee

I don't believe all that at all.... goes against what I read.... but then again... I'm only a lay person...

No, it doesn't go against what you've read. It only goes against your understanding of what you've read.

Originally Posted by foodcritic

People are born in to this world in sin.

With exceptions, people are born with a sin nature, or in other words a propensity to sin. That doesn't mean an actual sin has been committed because we have free will to choose (the point of this thread). Babies are born with a propensity to sin but are not actual sinners.

Originally Posted by foodcritic

Maybe the immaculate conception was did not include Mary's egg?

What you are referring to is the Incarnation, not the Immaculate Conception. Nevertheless, if that were the case, then Jesus wouldn't have been human. As Christians we believe Jesus was fully God and fully human. At least the majority of us do, I don't know about you.

[hotcoffee]

Originally Posted by Radiant1

No, it doesn't go against what you've read. It only goes against your understanding of what you've read.



With exceptions, people are born with a sin nature, or in other words a propensity to sin. That doesn't mean an actual sin has been committed because we have free will to choose (the point of this thread). Babies are born with a propensity to sin but are not actual sinners.

Romans 3:23

New International Version (NIV)


23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"

It doesn't say all but Mary, Joseph and John.... It says all...

We all have the choice to ask for His forgiveness and ask Him into our lives.... we all have the choice to ask for salvation...

[Radiant1]

Originally Posted by hotcoffee

Romans 3:23

New International Version (NIV)


23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"

It doesn't say all but Mary, Joseph and John.... It says all...

We all have the choice to ask for His forgiveness and ask Him into our lives.... we all have the choice to ask for salvation...

It doesn't say all but Jesus either; so if you want to read that verse literally, then you would have to include Jesus as well.

Like I said, it's your understanding of what you read.

[libby]

Originally Posted by Radiant1

It doesn't say all but Jesus either; so if you want to read that verse literally, then you would have to include Jesus as well.

Like I said, it's your understanding of what you read.

And babies, and the mentally disabled, etc.