Is it possible...

[hotcoffee]

Originally Posted by Radiant1

It doesn't say all but Jesus either; so if you want to read that verse literally, then you would have to include Jesus as well.

Like I said, it's your understanding of what you read.

Jesus was tempted to sin as well so even He was born in sin as well.

Jesus chose to walk with His Heavenly Father.... He was the only human to conquer sin and since He lived in Sin but chose not to sin He is able to understand us and speak on our behalf.

We are not God so we screw up all the time. Jesus was God and He could conquer the temptations of sin.... but He was tempted just like us....


Romans 7:15-24

New International Version (NIV)


15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?


Footnotes:
a.Romans 7:18 Or my flesh

Jesus speaks for the children and He gives them forgiveness because of their innocence. But even children are born in sin....

[Radiant1]

Originally Posted by hotcoffee

Jesus was tempted to sin as well so even He was born in sin as well.

Being tempted does not necessitate a sin nature or as you call it "being born in sin". Adam and Eve were created without a sin nature but yet they were tempted. It just so happens they fell to the temptation, which is why we are now born with it and therefore the need for Jesus. If you truly contemplate the majesty of God, then there can be no room for a sin nature; God's nature being what it is, it would be impossible. If it were possible, He wouldn't be God. Jesus being true God and true man could not "live in sin" as you say.

Originally Posted by hotcoffee

Jesus speaks for the children and He gives them forgiveness because of their innocence. But even children are born in sin....

Yes, a sin nature (the tendency), but not actual committed sin.

Again, it's your understanding of what you read. But far be it for me to disabuse you of your notions no matter how erroneous I think they may be.

[migtig]

Originally Posted by Radiant1

Being tempted does not necessitate a sin nature or as you call it "being born in sin". Adam and Eve were created without a sin nature but yet they were tempted. It just so happens they fell to the temptation, which is why we are now born with it and therefore the need for Jesus. If you truly contemplate the majesty of God, then there can be no room for a sin nature; God's nature being what it is, it would be impossible. If it were possible, He wouldn't be God. Jesus being true God and true man could not "live in sin" as you say.



Yes, a sin nature (the tendency), but not actual committed sin.

Again, it's your understanding of what you read. But far be it for me to disabuse you of your notions no matter how erroneous I think they may be.

I agree with hotcoffee. It's matches what I've read in the bible - we are born in sin. It's up to us as individuals with free will to repent from our sin.
My previous post:

Originally Posted by migtig

We were all born in sin.
Psalm 51:5
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Romans 5:12-14
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

But here are some more quotes in regards to this:

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of G-d

Romans 5:14
Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

Ecclesiastes 7:20
Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins.

1 John 1:10
If we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

James 4:17
So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

Acts 3:19-21
Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which G-d spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago.

Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Romans 3:10
As it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one"

Jeremiah 3:25
Let us lie down in our shame, and let our dishonor cover us. For we have sinned against the Lord our G-d, we and our fathers, from our youth even to this day, and we have not obeyed the voice of the Lord our G-d

-----

If you've read something else that leads you to believe otherwise, I personally would like to know it. Everything I've seen says we are all sinners unless we repent and accept G-d into our hearts.

[Radiant1]

Originally Posted by migtig

I agree with hotcoffee. It's matches what I've read in the bible - we are born in sin. It's up to us as individuals with free will to repent from our sin.
My previous post:


But here are some more quotes in regards to this:

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of G-d

Romans 5:14
Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

Ecclesiastes 7:20
Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins.

1 John 1:10
If we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

James 4:17
So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

Acts 3:19-21
Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which G-d spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago.

Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Romans 3:10
As it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one"

Jeremiah 3:25
Let us lie down in our shame, and let our dishonor cover us. For we have sinned against the Lord our G-d, we and our fathers, from our youth even to this day, and we have not obeyed the voice of the Lord our G-d

-----

If you've read something else that leads you to believe otherwise, I personally would like to know it. Everything I've seen says we are all sinners unless we repent and accept G-d into our hearts.

Like I said, if you read those verses literally, then it includes Jesus and we know that can't be true.

[migtig]

Originally Posted by Radiant1

Like I said, if you read those verses literally, then it includes Jesus and we know that can't be true.

I do. You know I'm very literal.

Luke 18:19
And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except G-d alone.

See, literally, it wasn't until Jesus sacrificed himself for our sins, that our sins could be forgiven:

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to G-d, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit

John 3:16
For G-d so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

[Radiant1]

Originally Posted by migtig

I do. You know I'm very literal.

Luke 18:19
And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except G-d alone.

If you think Jesus is God, then that's obviously a rhetorical question.

Originally Posted by migtig

See, literally, it wasn't until Jesus sacrificed himself for our sins, that our sins could be forgiven:

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to G-d, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit

John 3:16
For G-d so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Yeah, so? You do think God eternal, don't you? Mary conceived without sin is by the merits of Jesus' sacrifice; she was saved at her conception because God knew the plan. There is no issue here unless you think God lives in linear time or something.

I'll tell you like I told hotcoffee...far be it for me to disabuse you of your notions.

[hotcoffee]

Originally Posted by Radiant1

Being tempted does not necessitate a sin nature or as you call it "being born in sin". Adam and Eve were created without a sin nature but yet they were tempted. It just so happens they fell to the temptation, which is why we are now born with it and therefore the need for Jesus. If you truly contemplate the majesty of God, then there can be no room for a sin nature; God's nature being what it is, it would be impossible. If it were possible, He wouldn't be God. Jesus being true God and true man could not "live in sin" as you say.



Yes, a sin nature (the tendency), but not actual committed sin.

Again, it's your understanding of what you read. But far be it for me to disabuse you of your notions no matter how erroneous I think they may be.

People don't want to say that children sin.... children don't know any better....

Look at Caine.... Caine killed his brother... but God was understanding...

Genisis 4:10 The Lord said, “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground. 11 Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. 12 When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth.”

13 Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is more than I can bear. 14 Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.”
15 But the Lord said to him, “Not so[e]; anyone who kills Cain will suffer vengeance seven times over.” Then the Lord put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. 16 So Cain went out from the Lord’s presence and lived in the land of Nod,[f] east of Eden."

I believe [I think I heard] that the reason God did not require and eye for an eye in this case was that this was the first murder and Cain could not have understood the consequences. So God had mercy on him.

It would be the same with a child.... as a matter of fact, I think the parents and other adults [who understand the consequences] are supposed to be responsible for the children.

Matthew 19:14 ESV / 18 helpful votes
But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”

[migtig]

Originally Posted by Radiant1

I'll tell you like I told hotcoffee...far be it for me to disabuse you of your notions.

Hmmm...I already told you to provide me information otherwise. You know I analyze everything. But IF no additional information is provided then I have to form my opinions aka judgements, based on the data present.

[Radiant1]

Originally Posted by migtig

Hmmm...I already told you to provide me information otherwise. You know I analyze everything. But IF no additional information is provided then I have to form my opinions aka judgements, based on the data present.

You really already have the data, but let me give you something else to chew on.

Hail Mary, full of grace! (Luke 1:28) The literal translation from the Greek, kecharitomene, is "she who has been graced". No one else had ever been greeted in that manner "she who has been graced". John 19:13 and Acts 23:26 are the only other places in scripture where a greeting in addition to stating one's title was used. In other words, the angel is saying Mary full of grace is her name, kind of like if I were to say to you, "Hey, she who is a self-professed nerd" (which you are).

If Mary is born with a sin nature and an actual sinner like the rest of us, then how could the angel call her "full of grace" or "she who has been graced"? Angels, by their very nature cannot lie.

Then, there is the ark of the new convenant. The ark of the old testament
1) Contained the presence of God (manna, Aaron's rod, and the 10 commandments) which are archetypes of Jesus (John 6:32, Hebrews 3:1, and John 1:14). Mary carried Jesus in her womb.
2) Was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit (Exodus 40:32-33). So was Mary (Luke 1:35).
3) David danced before the ark, asked how it could come to him, and remained in the house for 3 months (2Samuel 6). John the Baptist leapt in Elizabeth's womb before Mary, Elizabeth asked how the Mother of the Lord could come to her, and Mary stayed there 3 months (Luke 1).

Why would Luke bother to make this distinction if Mary was just a plain jane sinner like the rest of us?

In addition, Mary is the new Eve as Jesus is the new Adam. God promised another woman in Genesis 3:15, Mary is that woman. Genesis refers to Adam and Eve as man and woman (also the literal translations of their names). Jesus is referred to the new Adam in 1Cor 15:45. Jesus refers to Mary as "woman" twice in John 2:4 and again in 19:26. Then of course there's Revelations 12 referring again to this "woman".

If Mary is the new Eve as Jesus is the new Adam, then it's unthinkable that she would have been born with a sin nature.

It follows that since her parents were humans she would have had a sin nature but by the merits of Christ (who is eternal and existed from the beginning remember), she was saved from that nature at her conception because she was to be full of grace, the ark of the new covenant, and the new Eve. God cannot be housed and nurtured by an impure vessel.

I won't bother with evidence from the Church Fathers unless you specifically ask.

[migtig]

Originally Posted by Radiant1

It follows that since her parents were humans she would have had a sin nature but by the merits of Christ (who is eternal and existed from the beginning remember), she was saved from that nature at her conception because she was to be full of grace, the ark of the new covenant, and the new Eve. God cannot be housed and nurtured by an impure vessel.

I won't bother with evidence from the Church Fathers unless you specifically ask.

I *personally* would have never thought of Mary as the ark of the new covenant, but it's an interesting perspective and I will revisit the bible verses with that possibility in mind. I also would have never connected a "New" Eve and "new" Adam to either Mary or Jesus. I still don't know if that's logical to me. I'll let that one sit in my brain and stew a while.

You can share if you want to. You know I don't dismiss anything.