Is it possible...

[libby]

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

Libby; They're making this thread about Mary! Stop them...

Mary being sinless or the "ark of the new covenant" is untrue, a BIG stretch of ones imagination and as unbiblical as Jesus & Satan being brothers.

Back to the topic; for someone (accountable) to never have sinned would negate their need for a Savior. Think about that...

Well, as a Catholic, I believe in Original Sin, from which their is still the need for a Savior.
Which is why I asked specifically about actual sin. Even if someone commits no actual sin, they still need Jesus Christ.

[ItalianScallion (Premo)]

Originally Posted by migtig

No, I think I'll refuse to play the idiot. I prefer to learn and grow at every chance that's given to me.

But let me give your closed mind a new POV to consider. Let's say you actually do want to rebut some information. How can you if you remain ignorant to the information you wish to refuse? If you learn the questionable information for yourself you might find 1) there is nothing to rebut or 2) that you have some actual proof and evidence of what you want to rebut.

I personally never claim to be superior to the next person. That's were you go wrong. You are going "nah nah nah I can't hear you" and exclaiming "You are wrong" to anybody who doesn't spout your "party" line. That doesn't open any free discourse. That doesn't give you a true argument and it surely does not convince others to take your side or follow your path of enlightment. It shows you as a biased hateful person who is not exhibiting any love or acceptance of others. I personally refused to bowed by your ignorance and intolerance. I can learn for myself and be exposed to many things and form my own decisions just fine.

People who act closed off and standoffish without learning and growing and who act like bullies such as yourself are the very reason that many people walk away from the Christian churches. G-d isn't fearmongering and hate. G-d is love. You want to turn others to your way of thinking? Then learn to have some civil discourse and stop acting like you are the only righteous man in the room.

Jesus was hated and looked at as a bully, extremist and liar but was He wrong?

What you're doing is opening your mind up to false teachings so don't say "you're not playing the idiot" here. You need to know the truth so that when a lie comes up you'll know it. Instead you'd rather look at all the lies and try to figure out what might be true when you don't yet know the truth.

We don't need to know all the lies about God out there; we only need to know the truth. This is why you've told me before that you believe there is a God but you're not sure who He is. I've asked you and you refused to tell me who you believe God is. That is in direct opposition to what God says for us to do but you wouldn't know that...

[ItalianScallion (Premo)]

Originally Posted by libby

Well, as a Catholic, I believe in Original Sin, from which their is still the need for a Savior.
Which is why I asked specifically about actual sin. Even if someone commits no actual sin, they still need Jesus Christ.

But isn't that a viscious circle? You say they've committed no sin but then you say they have sin because of original sin? Either they do have sin or they don't.

And, if everyone is responsible for their own sin, how can someone who hasn't sinned, be responsible for a sin they haven't committed?

[StoneThrower]

Originally Posted by libby

StoneThrower,
I appreciate your thoughtful responses.


Because Protestant theologies differ, I guess I don't know if you and I are talking about the same thing.
Do you, personally, as a Protestant, believe in Original Sin? Not that that really has much bearing on the question at hand, because I'm talking about [what-Catholics-call] actual sin.
We have an inclination to sin because of Original Sin, our fallen human nature. That is how I describe it as a Catholic. However, we also have free will. Because of that free will, and by the graces we receive through sacraments and prayer, I believe, in theory, it is possible to live a sinless life. Again, I am speaking of actual sin. As a Catholic I believe we are all born in that Original Sin, so yes, we need a Savior and that Savior is Jesus Christ.
I object to IS's take on this because I think it denies free will. Perhaps you can do a better job explaining, if you agree with him that there is no such thing as being able to avoid all actual sin.

I am not sure this will help, but I believe that we are born with a sin nature.
That we have an Adamic nature, Adam sinned as our federal head and because of that all men will sin, as stated earlier that nature is passed through the seed of the man and that why Christ was born of the seed of a woman which is an interesting thought as women don’t have seed in our normal terms. Scripture says I was conceived in sin in my mother’s womb. So man at is very foundation or inner being is a sinner. He can will not to sin if he has the Holy Spirit but that is only his desire.

[Radiant1]

Originally Posted by StoneThrower

I am not sure this will help, but I believe that we are born with a sin nature.
That we have an Adamic nature, Adam sinned as our federal head and because of that all men will sin, as stated earlier that nature is passed through the seed of the man and that why Christ was born of the seed of a woman which is an interesting thought as women don’t have seed in our normal terms. Scripture says I was conceived in sin in my mother’s womb. So man at is very foundation or inner being is a sinner. He can will not to sin if he has the Holy Spirit but that is only his desire.

At first glance that may make sense but then we have the following verses to look at.

For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 1Timothy 2:13–14

But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 2Cor 11:3

I think throughout scripture it is clear that both Adam and Eve transgressed. After all, both were chastised, both punished, and both kicked out of Eden. Conception requires both an ovum and sperm. It is from both in which we inherit our sin nature.

[migtig]

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

Jesus was hated and looked at as a bully, extremist and liar but was He wrong?

What you're doing is opening your mind up to false teachings so don't say "you're not playing the idiot" here. You need to know the truth so that when a lie comes up you'll know it. Instead you'd rather look at all the lies and try to figure out what might be true when you don't yet know the truth.

We don't need to know all the lies about God out there; we only need to know the truth. This is why you've told me before that you believe there is a God but you're not sure who He is. I've asked you and you refused to tell me who you believe God is. That is in direct opposition to what God says for us to do but you wouldn't know that...

WTF You are comparing yourself to Jesus?!! Really?! You think you are Jesus? Dude, you need some mental help.

How do you know there are false teachings? Have you read them for yourself?

No, I've never said that. Thanks for putting words in my mouth, but you are *gasp* lying by doing so.

BTW, I told you, G-d told us to love. You obviously don't. And you lie. And you think you are Jesus. So basically you are a real screwed up man who is as far removed from G-d as an athiest.

[Radiant1]

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

But isn't that a viscious circle? You say they've committed no sin but then you say they have sin because of original sin? Either they do have sin or they don't.

And, if everyone is responsible for their own sin, how can someone who hasn't sinned, be responsible for a sin they haven't committed?

Original sin is the propensity or nature to sin, not necessarily having committed an actual sin (although almost all of us do at one point). Jesus paid the ransom for Adam and Eve's trangression i.e. original sin in which we're still responsible for.1Cor 15:45 So even if someone hasn't committed an actual sin, we're still in need of a savior.

[migtig]

Originally Posted by Radiant1

Original sin is the propensity or nature to sin, not necessarily having committed an actual sin (although almost all of us do at one point). Jesus paid the ransom for Adam and Eve's trangression i.e. original sin in which we're still responsible for.1Cor 15:45 So even if someone hasn't committed an actual sin, we're still in need of a savior.

Thank you for explaining that to both me and "Jesus" there.

[cheezgrits]

Originally Posted by migtig

Thank you for explaining that to both me and "Jesus" there.

The quicker you learn IS really is always right, the better you'll get along.


You should see what he thinks about me, the pagan Indian.

[ItalianScallion (Premo)]

Originally Posted by migtig

WTF You are comparing yourself to Jesus?!! Really?! You think you are Jesus? Dude, you need some mental help.

How do you know there are false teachings? Have you read them for yourself?

BTW, I told you, G-d told us to love. You obviously don't. And you lie. And you think you are Jesus. So basically you are a real screwed up man who is as far removed from G-d as an athiest.

Please stop all those ignorant assumptions. I never said that I was Jesus. Are you & MMDad related?

How do I know there are false teachings? See? See what I mean? Why don't YOU know they are false teachings?

Yes, God told us to love and love is expressed in many ways. One of them is teaching & rebuking others so they might turn from their erroneous ways and be saved.