Is it possible...

[libby]

Recently having a conversation with my son, who loves philosophy and theology. It brought to mind a question I would like to ask our Protestant bretheren, at least some of them.
If I understand correctly, some Protestants do not believe in Original Sin. With this in mind I would like to ask, "is it possible for a person to commit no sin".
Now, it would seem that I have the Blessed Mother in mind, which I certainly did not when I had the conversation with my son. However, it did lead to that in my own mind as we went over the theological point, and it solidified her sinlessness to me, but I'm not trying to convince any of you of that.
I'm only interested in whether Protestant theology acknowleges the possibility. We all have free will, that is a point on which we all agree. Therefore, if we truly have free will, it is possible for a person to always choose the good. This is different from probable, or likely, or anything else. And I'm really not looking for a debate on the Blessed Mother.

[migtig]

We were all born in sin. And as a woman, we carry the curse of Eve.

Psalm 51:5
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Romans 5:12-14
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

Genesis 3:16
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.


---

So Mary was born in sin right? She wasn't an immaculate conception. I don't believe she was sinless at all. She died, she married Joseph and historical / archealogical records seem to bear out that she had other children. So she didn't remain pure.

The whole point of Christ was to have a savior to wash away our sins. But how can your sins be washed away if you don't ask Him to or believe? And even then we keep on sinning. Why? Because we have free will. Because we are weak and imperfect.

So no, I don't believe an average human can be sinless. Maybe the dali lama, but I don't think he is an average human. Maybe some great gurus, hermits, cloistered nuns/brothers, etc. can be sinless. But again, they aren't your everyday average human.

[vraiblonde]

Originally Posted by migtig

She wasn't an immaculate conception.

The Catholic Church says she was. They celebrate it on Dec. 8.

My understanding is that Protestant theology does not allow for the possibility of a completely sinless state. I think the best you can do is repent and be redeemed.

[Radiant1]

Originally Posted by migtig

So no, I don't believe an average human can be sinless. Maybe the dali lama, but I don't think he is an average human. Maybe some great gurus, hermits, cloistered nuns/brothers, etc. can be sinless. But again, they aren't your everyday average human.

It sounds like what you're saying is that we are all born with a sinful nature, but yet it's possible to choose by free will not to sin for those who are not "average". This would actually be a yes answer to libby's question, as she did not quantify average or nonaverage.

If one doesn't think we are born with a sinful nature, then it's possible for even the "average" person. Extraordinarily difficult and not likely, but possible. I think this was the crux of libby and her son's conversation.

Btw, sexual relations with one's spouse does not imply impurity. So, if you think it's possible for the Dalai Lama to be sinless, then surely it was possible for Mary; both of them being far from "average".

[migtig]

Originally Posted by Radiant1

It sounds like what you're saying is that we are all born with a sinful nature, but yet it's possible to choose by free will not to sin for those who are not "average". This would actually be a yes answer to libby's question, as she did not quantify average or nonaverage.

If one doesn't think we are born with a sinful nature, then it's possible for even the "average" person. Extraordinarily difficult and not likely, but possible. I think this was the crux of libby and her son's conversation.

Btw, sexual relations with one's spouse does not imply impurity. So, if you think it's possible for the Dalai Lama to be sinless, then surely it was possible for Mary; both of them being far from "average".

Sure, possible, but doubtful. After all the dalai lama doesn't believe Christ is his savior, so he's not sinless is he?

I also do not believe Mary was an immaculate conception. I never saw that in the bible or even the dead sea scrolls nor anyother historical text. If true, then it raises all kinds of doubts and concerns. Was she the savior instead of Jesus? Too weird for me to go into all the questions and doubts and concerns that would raise.

Oh and no, I agree, sexual relations with spouse aren't a sin, but as a woman giving birth she shares in Eve's curse and sin. It all goes back to the Garden of Eden...

[libby]

Originally Posted by migtig

We were all born in sin. And as a woman, we carry the curse of Eve.

Psalm 51:5
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Romans 5:12-14
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

Genesis 3:16
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.


---

So Mary was born in sin right? She wasn't an immaculate conception. I don't believe she was sinless at all. She died, she married Joseph and historical / archealogical records seem to bear out that she had other children. So she didn't remain pure.

The whole point of Christ was to have a savior to wash away our sins. But how can your sins be washed away if you don't ask Him to or believe? And even then we keep on sinning. Why? Because we have free will. Because we are weak and imperfect.

So no, I don't believe an average human can be sinless. Maybe the dali lama, but I don't think he is an average human. Maybe some great gurus, hermits, cloistered nuns/brothers, etc. can be sinless. But again, they aren't your everyday average human.

As I said in my original post, I am not speaking of Mary; although, as a Catholic, it certainly became part of my conversation with my son and it edified my own belief.
The question was three-fold, #1-do you (in particular or collective) believe in Original Sin? #2-do you believe in free will? #3- if 'yes' to #2, then it follows that you believe a person can, indeed, go through life without sinning, no?

I mean, if a person answers 'no' to #3 then they obviously do not believe in free will. Feel free to correct me on this point.

[aps45819]

Anything is possible if you believe

[Radiant1]

Originally Posted by migtig

I also do not believe Mary was an immaculate conception. I never saw that in the bible or even the dead sea scrolls nor anyother historical text. If true, then it raises all kinds of doubts and concerns. Was she the savior instead of Jesus? Too weird for me to go into all the questions and doubts and concerns that would raise.

I understand the questions, believe me, I had a ton of them myself at one point. It basically boils down to logic. Jesus is God. God cannot by His very nature be impure in any way, shape, or form; therefore, Jesus could not take on a sinful nature by being born of Mary if she herself was not created sinless by Him in anticipation of what He was going to do (redemption). In other words, if Mary was like the rest of us average women then Jesus wasn't God. Mary being conceived without sin is actually a testament to God's glory and everything God is.

This leads to more questions of course, "Then why isn't Mary a savior?" The answer is because she was not God and did not make the sacrifice for us.

Another question, "Does that mean Mary didn't need a savior?" Of course she did. By way of anaology -- a man is walking along and falls in the ditch, he needs someone to save him by throwing in a rope and pulling him out. Or, the man is walking up to the ditch he does not see, and someone saves him by warning him. In both cases, the man is saved; however, in the latter example the saving happened before the actual fall into the ditch (like Mary). Jude 24-25: "Now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you without blemish before the presence of his glory with rejoicing, to the only God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and for ever." Mary was presented without blemish before the glory of God at the Incarnation.

Although it's implied in numerous places in scripture, you're not going to find a direct reference any more than you would Trinity; however, you can logical deduce truth from it regardless.

[ItalianScallion (Premo)]

Originally Posted by libby

The question was three-fold,
#1-do you (in particular or collective) believe in Original Sin?
#2-do you believe in free will?
#3- if 'yes' to #2, then it follows that you believe a person can, indeed, go through life without sinning, no? I mean, if a person answers 'no' to #3 then they obviously do not believe in free will. Feel free to correct me on this point.

One thing you folks need to do is stop this "if, then" mentality. Or at least arrive at the proper conclusions when you do. There's no justification in saying: "If yes to #2 then a person can indeed go through life w/o sinning". Ain't gonna happen, ever. Accountability can NOT be ignored on this issue or you'll arrive at the wrong conclusion. So:

1) There is no such thing as "original sin". It is a man made concept that arises from people who have no truth standard (That's old news though). No one is born with sin in their life. They are born with a "sin nature" or a propensity to sin. When they get old enough to be accountable for their actions, they will sin.

2) Yes; we all have free will

3) A person could go TRY to go through life w/o sinning but, if they lived a normal life span, they ALL would eventually sin. Everyone who lives to their "age of accountability" will sin. Only one man never sinned but He was God so He couldn't sin.

I'm glad you don't want to talk about Mary because we've already done that to the N'th degree...

[hotcoffee]

I don't understand all that stuff.... sometimes it goes way way way over my head....

Here's what I was taught as a Southern Baptist.... [with Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheren, and even a little non-denominational Sunday School time thrown in]....

Mary was just like you and me.... born to sin.... she wasn't perfect but somehow she found favor in God's sight. So she was chosen by God to become the earthly mother of God's only "begotten" Son.

So Mary became pregnent even tho she had never been with a man. That makes it Immaculent.

Jesus was born in sin.... another words He was born as a human who was tempted to do sin... Jesus was the Son of God.... He could have done anything He wanted to do. He could have given in to any or all the temptations we all deal with on any day. BUT He didn't. That's what makes Him so very qualified to sit in judgement of us all.

Jesus knows what it feels like to want to talk back to the morons in your life that think they are so much smarter than you. Jesus was raised by human parents.... I bet it was a real temptation for Him to tell Mary to stop harping on Him to wash behind His ears... But He resisted the tempation and honored His Mother and with that perfect effort He honored His Father who was in Heaven.

So.... Mary was not perfect.... Jesus was born Human so He was tempted just like us but He led a perfect life... resisted ALL temptation.

I guess that you could tell your son that Mary pitched a no hitter but Jesus pitched a perfect game.... and He's willing and able to stand up for us to the GM in Heaven....