None's on the rise, not on the run

[StoneThrower]

Originally Posted by ladyhawk

Maybe the better question is what is a church?
There is nothing I've ever seen. or heard that stated church had to be in a building....Church can be anywhere a "believer" feels it to be.

It's not a building, its a body of believers, which has a function. So the Lone Ranger Christian doing his own thing in front of a TV set is not church, you cant take communion, be there to encourage another believer, there is no personal accountability outside of a group of believers. A pastor that isnt walking with a group of believers cant minister to them or know their needs. You need all of the above to be a church, plus church discipline, or its not a church.

Originally Posted by ladyhawk

And who is God... God is God, Allah, Buddha, ect.. ect.. depending on your belief system. Just because you believe doesn't mean it has to be in a god.. or that you have to choose which one to believe in...

Athiests don't believe in god, but they believe...

June

In Christianty, Jesus Christ says he is God and there is no other. One God three distinct personalities. So any other god is a false god and dosent exsist except in the imaginations of men.

The real question is how are your sins paid for? If you dont have an acceptable scrafice, they arent.

Long time no talk to, did you ever escape CRE as planned?

[StoneThrower]

Originally Posted by Zguy28

I think what he means (I hope) is that "the church" is for those who are in (new) covenant with God and justified by faith in Jesus Christ. The books of Galatians and Romans spell this out very explicitly. The church of Jesus Christ is not a movement, a sect, or a denomination, its all believers who are justified by faith alone, through grace alone, in Jesus Christ alone.

Yes, I think I clarified that in my reply. You cant worship God if you dont know Him and its not please to Him.

[StoneThrower]

Originally Posted by cheezgrits

I'm sorry, my standing in the woods at sunrise witnessing the Creator bringing forth another day beats your building full of self righteous hypocrites on a Sunday morning thinking they are the only ones worthy of praising the Creator any day.

No wonder why this poll is the way it is. Would you want to go to church with some of the people in this forum? I wouldn't.

cheezgrits so sorry, I didn’t know you were God.
To claim everyone in church as being self righteous hypocrites means that you have infinite knowledge and know all things. Talk about self righteous,.... labeling people that way. More specifically to call someone a hypocrite means that you profess to have knowledge you don’t. Wow dude....

Call a spade a spade, you don’t like the gospel because it leaves you hopeless, helpless, and Hell bound and that’s an affront to your senses.
You prefer an imaginary God that allows you to be Lord of your own life and whenever you get reminded of that, it ruffles your feathers.

Well I am sorry my friend but that doesn’t change anything, and your red road is leading you straight to the fires of Hell that await you, and if you don’t change roads your goose is cooked.

[StoneThrower]

Originally Posted by hotcoffee

So it was ok for Jesus to sit down with all sinners to teach and heal them.... but your church is only for people who have already made up their minds....

No!
Let’s start at the beginning.
This has nothing to do with me, or my church, I am referring to the universal church, Christ Bride.

It has nothing to do with Christ eating with sinners or anyone else.

It’s defining what a church is and who it’s primarily for and what takes place in one. You need key elements to be a church.

You can’t offer acceptable worship to God if you don’t know Him.

Imagine Hitler sending you a dozen roses, the roses them self are not offensive, it’s whom the gift is from.

Everyone prays to God and God hears all prayer, but the only prayer from an unbeliever that God honors is one asking for forgiveness in repentance and faith.

God’s wrath is being stored up against the unbeliever waiting to be poured out. There are a lot of downright goofy things people believe about God and it’s the churches fault for not correcting these urban legends and miss placed ideas about who man is, who God is.

People think man is at his nature overall good, the Bible teaches the opposite that man is depraved, wicked and that Gods angry at the wicked every day.

They see God as a cosmic Santa Clause just sitting there waiting at their beck and call to grant there every wish.

That were all Gods children believers and unbelievers alike, were not, we are his creation, but until you have repented and but your faith and trust in Jesus Christ alone the Bible says your of your father the devil!

People believe that God is all love, he’s not all of His attributes are equal if he was more of one than another He would be unbalanced, not perfect and couldn’t be God. For as much as God is love, he is equally just.

My point was to get people thinking. What is a church, who is it for, what does it do. It’s not a social requirement. For that matter why do people even go to church? Some here profess to be Christians but then reject Gods word and his commands, showing who really is Lord of their life, and it’s not Christ.

[hotcoffee]

Originally Posted by StoneThrower

No!
Let’s start at the beginning.
This has nothing to do with me, or my church, I am referring to the universal church, Christ Bride.

It has nothing to do with Christ eating with sinners or anyone else.

It’s defining what a church is and who it’s primarily for and what takes place in one. You need key elements to be a church.

You can’t offer acceptable worship to God if you don’t know Him.

Imagine Hitler sending you a dozen roses, the roses them self are not offensive, it’s whom the gift is from.

Everyone prays to God and God hears all prayer, but the only prayer from an unbeliever that God honors is one asking for forgiveness in repentance and faith.

God’s wrath is being stored up against the unbeliever waiting to be poured out. There are a lot of downright goofy things people believe about God and it’s the churches fault for not correcting these urban legends and miss placed ideas about who man is, who God is.

People think man is at his nature overall good, the Bible teaches the opposite that man is depraved, wicked and that Gods angry at the wicked every day.

They see God as a cosmic Santa Clause just sitting there waiting at their beck and call to grant there every wish.

That were all Gods children believers and unbelievers alike, were not, we are his creation, but until you have repented and but your faith and trust in Jesus Christ alone the Bible says your of your father the devil!

People believe that God is all love, he’s not all of His attributes are equal if he was more of one than another He would be unbalanced, not perfect and couldn’t be God. For as much as God is love, he is equally just.

My point was to get people thinking. What is a church, who is it for, what does it do. It’s not a social requirement. For that matter why do people even go to church? Some here profess to be Christians but then reject Gods word and his commands, showing who really is Lord of their life, and it’s not Christ.

You are talking about the church members... the ones on the rolls who support the church financially, the deacons, elders and the sunday school teachers....

We are talking about the church.... the gathering... the people who may not have joined the establishment......

If your church will not tolerate, allow, show agape love to all who walk into the gathering, be it under the trees or in a building.... then you are no better than the pharisees or the sadducees in my opinion....

I've sat beside degenerates, drunks, theives, adulterers in churches who sang the hymns with gusto, took up the offering, read the scripture to the assembly.... and then stopped by the liquor store or the corner dealer on the way home or beat their wife and children.

I've spoken with a homeless man on the beach that truly had Christ in his heart. Others would have turned their nose up at him [in self defense admitedly but still].

Remember the song... "Signs Signes everywhere a sign... do this don't do that... can't you read the signs"

Your desciption of the Church is not what I call a real vibrant growing church.

Let's not forget, my friend, that I am saved .... I've been a Sunday School Teacher, a Youth Church leader, and sang in the choir. I have no use for the establishment church today. I've had my Bible burned by preachers, I've had friends thrown out of the church because they were having emotional problems... people who love the Lord as much as I.

The church establishment is in serious trouble. Years ago, an article like the one that was published in the Recorder would have caused quite a bit of anguish on behalf of the believers. Today.... the "believers" just defend themselves by spouting rules and rolls. It's troublesome.... How is the gospel going to continue to be spread if the church is shutting it's doors?

[ladyhawk]

Originally Posted by StoneThrower

It's not a building, its a body of believers, which has a function. So the Lone Ranger Christian doing his own thing in front of a TV set is not church, you cant take communion, be there to encourage another believer, there is no personal accountability outside of a group of believers. A pastor that isnt walking with a group of believers cant minister to them or know their needs. You need all of the above to be a church, plus church discipline, or its not a church.

And where exactly do you come up with It's not a building but a body of believers having a function? Is this your interpretation of something you read? Body of believers in what? Cults have "body of believers". Then what personal accountability do you need when you are alone? He sees all, knows all so I'm a bit confused on that one, especially when a person is alone... As far as being denied communion, I had that happen once because I could not prove that I attended catechism and was never aware I had to...

In Christianty, Jesus Christ says he is God and there is no other. One God three distinct personalities. So any other god is a false god and dosent exsist except in the imaginations of men.

The real question is how are your sins paid for? If you dont have an acceptable scrafice, they arent.

"Jesus Christ says he is God and there is no other" is found in the bible so the bible says Jesus Christ says he is god and there is no other.... The bible can be interpreted differently by different people who read it and then again by those individuals "preaching to the masses".. Its just a book like any other. It has some really awesome stories but more importantly for those that truly believe that these were the words of god, It helps them get through tough times and I don't know any other book that can do that...
I have a couple of bibles in my library...

As far as my sins, I believe guilt is an acceptable sacrifice... unless of course I killed someone... What is an acceptable sacrifice for something like that? I don't believe there is one, and there is not enough hail mary's to replace a life.... Confession just doesn't cut it...

Everyone sins... it's the extent of the sin that determines what sacrifice is acceptable... And then who determines whats acceptable?

Long time no talk to, did you ever escape CRE as planned?

Sort of... LOL

June

[StoneThrower]

Originally Posted by hotcoffee

You are talking about the church members... the ones on the rolls who support the church financially, the deacons, elders and the sunday school teachers....

We are talking about the church.... the gathering... the people who may not have joined the establishment......

If your church will not tolerate, allow, show agape love to all who walk into the gathering, be it under the trees or in a building.... then you are no better than the pharisees or the sadducees in my opinion....

I've sat beside degenerates, drunks, theives, adulterers in churches who sang the hymns with gusto, took up the offering, read the scripture to the assembly.... and then stopped by the liquor store or the corner dealer on the way home or beat their wife and children.

I've spoken with a homeless man on the beach that truly had Christ in his heart. Others would have turned their nose up at him [in self defense admitedly but still].

Remember the song... "Signs Signes everywhere a sign... do this don't do that... can't you read the signs"

Your desciption of the Church is not what I call a real vibrant growing church.

Let's not forget, my friend, that I am saved .... I've been a Sunday School Teacher, a Youth Church leader, and sang in the choir. I have no use for the establishment church today. I've had my Bible burned by preachers, I've had friends thrown out of the church because they were having emotional problems... people who love the Lord as much as I.

The church establishment is in serious trouble. Years ago, an article like the one that was published in the Recorder would have caused quite a bit of anguish on behalf of the believers. Today.... the "believers" just defend themselves by spouting rules and rolls. It's troublesome.... How is the gospel going to continue to be spread if the church is shutting it's doors?

I dont understand why you keep making it personal, and saying my church I am not speaking for my church. Our church will welcome anyone, but that doesnt have anything to do with this conversation.

I didnt ask who is welcome, I asked who it was for and what its for.

I am talking about the visible church, can you be a member of a church just by attending? Thats a differnt topic and my pastor and I have differnt opinions on that.

I have no problem hanging with those deemed the dregs of society, ( I consider myself one of them) in fact I delight in it and it makes some so called Christians in my former circles very uncomfortable when I would bring them to Para Church organization functions. "For what ever you do for the least of these you have done unto me."

The reason churches are closing doors, they probably were a church in name only and little more than a gathering for goats and still borns. Other wise they would have gone out, brought people to Christ and reproduced in number. The us has more desipleship materials and programs than anyother nation, the problem is they are trying to desciple people into salvation and that dosent work. They come to Christ them you desciple them.

[StoneThrower]

Originally Posted by ladyhawk

And where exactly do you come up with it’s not a building but a body of believers having a function?

2000 years of what the church believed.
A church is a building
But when we refer to the church (universal) the apostle’s creed is a good example:
I believe in God the father almighty creator of heaven and earth and in Jesus Christ his only son our Lord who was conceived of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilot was crucified died and buried and descended into hell (descended into Hell not in the earliest version) I believe the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints. This creed not complete is what the church has accepted as what a Christian believes. And the catholic church is not the Roman catholic church but the universal church then it goes into the communion of saints ( any believer) So it’s a body of believers in Jesus Christ.

Originally Posted by ladyhawk

Then what personal accountability do you need when you are alone? He sees all, knows all so I'm a bit confused on that one, especially when a person is alone... As far as being denied communion, I had that happen once because I could not prove that I attended catechism and was never aware I had to...

Great question Christians are to confess our sins to one another not a man in a box, your pastor should know you and whatever sin issues you struggle with so he can pray for you this goes for all the elders.
So say Sam who professes to be a Christian is known to be disrespectful to his wife frequently, leaders of the church or just other men that he may have confide in can hold him accountable and pray for him and help him with this sin issue. If a person doesn’t attend a church he has no means of partaking in communion which we are commanded to do till Christ returns.

Originally Posted by ladyhawk

"The bible can be interpreted differently by different people who read it and then again by those individuals "preaching to the masses".. It’s just a book like any other. It has some really awesome stories but more importantly for those that truly believe that these were the words of god, it helps them get through tough times and I don't know any other book that can do that...
I have a couple of bibles in my library...

You can take verses out of context and try to twist it to say anything you want, you can do that with any book, but if it’s taken out of context that’s not the normal understanding nor the way the author intended. I believe God is the author and used men as an instrument to convey his message. For me it’s not just like any other book it’s the final authority in my life and everything needed for life and Godliness. It’s also the oldest book in antiquity that we have the most copies of and the message has never changed although it may have scribe copy error like saying Christ Jesus instead of Jesus Christ. I don’t see it as a self-help manual or good moral stories but rather historical narrative of real people and real events. I don’t believe we change ourselves but that God changes us by a renewing of the mind when becoming born again.

Originally Posted by ladyhawk

As far as my sins, I believe guilt is an acceptable sacrifice... unless of course I killed someone... What is an acceptable sacrifice for something like that? I don't believe there is one, and there is not enough Hail Mary’s to replace a life.... Confession just doesn't cut it...

Everyone sins... it's the extent of the sin that determines what sacrifice is acceptable... And then who determines what’s acceptable?

Ok but how would that work in a court of Law? Your honor I know I am guilty and I feel really bad but a good judge that’s just, just can’t let you go A fine needs to be paid and our fine is larger than anyone of us could ever pay.
The only sacrifice for any sin is what Jesus paid on the cross, not the physical beating or being nailed to it many thugs endured that. It was god pouring out his full wrath on his son Psalms said god was pleased to crush him. That’s when the communion was broken between them and he said My God my God why has though forsaken me. Then latter he said it was finished meaning the sin debt was paid for. God determines what is acceptable the sacrifice had to be a man in order to pay for mans sin but it also had to be a perfect sinless man. God made the law and he also satisfied it for anyone that is willing to come on his terms.

[cheezgrits]

Originally Posted by StoneThrower

cheezgrits so sorry, I didn’t know you were God.
To claim everyone in church as being self righteous hypocrites means that you have infinite knowledge and know all things. Talk about self righteous,.... labeling people that way. More specifically to call someone a hypocrite means that you profess to have knowledge you don’t. Wow dude....

Call a spade a spade, you don’t like the gospel because it leaves you hopeless, helpless, and Hell bound and that’s an affront to your senses.
You prefer an imaginary God that allows you to be Lord of your own life and whenever you get reminded of that, it ruffles your feathers.

Well I am sorry my friend but that doesn’t change anything, and your red road is leading you straight to the fires of Hell that await you, and if you don’t change roads your goose is cooked.

Thanks for thinking of me, but please, worry about someone else. I'm just fine. And I'm pretty sure I'm OK not being welcome in your church! lol.

Thanks for assuming you know what I think about the gospels. And look up hypocrite again, use a dictionary this time.

[StoneThrower]

Originally Posted by cheezgrits

Thanks for thinking of me, but please, worry about someone else. I'm just fine. And I'm pretty sure I'm OK not being welcome in your church! lol.

Thanks for assuming you know what I think about the gospels. And look up hypocrite again, use a dictionary this time.

I never said you or anyone else aren't welcome, whats this, the seventh time now I repeated that?

I cant for the life of me understand why people cant distinguish between being welcome and not being for someone.
Especially after it was stated over and over again that everyone is welcome.

Everyone is welcome in the navy exchange, but not everyone can shop there as its not for everyone. This really isn't a hard concept to grasp especially after it was spelled out why.

Also no one said anything about whether you understand the synoptics.
Whats that have to do with anything?