Matthew 6:5-15 Prayer

[ItalianScallion (Premo)]

Originally Posted by libby

Is Jesus God?? Is Mary the mother of Jesus?? Did Jesus obey all of the Commandments, including "Honor Thy Father and Thy Mother"?? Is He the God of the Living?? Can we pray for each other?? If you answer "No" to any of these questions, you are a heretic.

Jesus is God

Mary was the mother of Jesus, not God. That prayer should have said that but it didn't. It is faulty, just like a few lines in the Apostles & Nicene Creeds

Jesus obeyed his parents, so?

Jesus said He's the God of the living. Mary is dead (physically)

Sure we can pray for each other but only the living and not the dead (spiritually or physically dead)...

[Radiant1]

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

Jesus is God

Mary was the mother of Jesus, not God.

I think you have need to study...

[ItalianScallion (Premo)]

Originally Posted by Radiant1

I think you have need to study...

So, then, God had a beginning? He was actually born @ 2,000 years ago? I think YOU have trouble separating the 2 natures of Jesus...

[hotcoffee]

I googled "define prayer" This is the first thing that popped up...

prayer /pre(ə)r/ Noun


1.A solemn request for help or expression of thanks addressed to God or an object of worship.
2.A religious service, esp. a regular one, at which people gather in order to pray together.

Synonyms

orison - request - entreaty - petition - plea

How sad we humans have become.... Why do we feel compelled to include the words "or an object of worship"? Are we so gunked up in the hearts that we can't stand up for where prayer really started and what it's true intent is?

I think this link to the Basics of Prayer defines it as I would define it to my Sunday School Class or my grandchildren....

For those of you who don't like following links.... Here's the best part...

"Prayer is personal communication with God – talking and listening to Him. He loves and cares for us. He wants to hear what we have to say. He is delighted when we pray"

• God commands us to pray (I Thessalonians 5: 17; Ephesians 6: 18) .
• Prayer glorifies God (John 14: 13).
• Prayer prepares our hearts to obey and walk with Jesus.
• Prayer benefits us.
• Prayer builds intimacy with God.
• God answers prayer (Acts 4: 23 –33; Matthew 9: 38).
• Prayer is both a privilege and a duty.

And these are the elements of prayer according to the site

• ADORATION - We express our adoration and praise to God, express wonder of His great majesty, His sovereignty and mighty power. We praise God for who He is and what He is like. We honor Him for the wonderful things He has done. In the Psalms are many excellent examples of praise and adoration.
• CONFESSION - What is confession? Confession means to agree with God about our sin. Confession involves repentance. I John 1: 9, Psalm 51
• THANKSGIVING - We express appreciation to God for what He has done for us. Our gratitude demonstrates faith. (I Thessalonians 5: 18, Psalm 107: 1, Psalm 103: 2)
• SUPPLICATION - Making requests. We pray for other people and their needs and for our own needs. (Matthew 6: 11 -13, Philippians 4: 6 -7)

[ItalianScallion (Premo)]

Originally Posted by hotcoffee

"Prayer is personal communication with God – talking and listening to Him. He loves and cares for us. He wants to hear what we have to say. He is delighted when we pray"

• God commands us to pray (I Thessalonians 5: 17; Ephesians 6: 18) .
• Prayer glorifies God (John 14: 13).
• Prayer prepares our hearts to obey and walk with Jesus.
• Prayer benefits us.
• Prayer builds intimacy with God.
• God answers prayer (Acts 4: 23 –33; Matthew 9: 38).
• Prayer is both a privilege and a duty.

And these are the elements of prayer according to the site

• ADORATION - We express our adoration and praise to God, express wonder of His great majesty, His sovereignty and mighty power. We praise God for who He is and what He is like. We honor Him for the wonderful things He has done. In the Psalms are many excellent examples of praise and adoration.
• CONFESSION - What is confession? Confession means to agree with God about our sin. Confession involves repentance. I John 1: 9, Psalm 51
• THANKSGIVING - We express appreciation to God for what He has done for us. Our gratitude demonstrates faith. (I Thessalonians 5: 18, Psalm 107: 1, Psalm 103: 2)
• SUPPLICATION - Making requests. We pray for other people and their needs and for our own needs. (Matthew 6: 11 -13, Philippians 4: 6 -7)

Good stuff HC. It's important, also, to "clear" our hearts & minds so we can pray. David said:

18 "If I had cherished sin in my heart, the Lord would not have listened; but God has surely listened and heard my voice in prayer. Praise be to God, who has not rejected my prayer or withheld his love from me!" (Psalm 66)

And Peter said:

"The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear minded and self-controlled so that you can pray." (1 Peter 4)

[Radiant1]

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

So, then, God had a beginning? He was actually born @ 2,000 years ago? I think YOU have trouble separating the 2 natures of Jesus...

No, God chose to be born in and around 1 AD, which does not imply that was His beginning. Jesus is one person with two natures that are not separate. To think otherwise is Nestorianism, which is an error that circulated in and around the early 5th c. (I'll be generous and refrain from calling you a heretic.)

[Zguy28]

You know, this could end well, or it could end badly. Regardless, the Protestant position is that Mary was the earthly vessel chosen to carry and give birth to the physical incarnation of the eternal Son of God. A unique position and blessing to be sure. In His incarnation Jesus undoubtedly showed her every honor and respect in fulfillment of the Law.

Why must you add to it?

This article comes pretty close to how I feel about it.

Examining the Roman Catholic view of Mary

[Radiant1]

Originally Posted by Zguy28

You know, this could end well, or it could end badly. Regardless, the Protestant position is that Mary was the earthly vessel chosen to carry and give birth to the physical incarnation of the eternal Son of God. A unique position and blessing to be sure. In His incarnation Jesus undoubtedly showed her every honor and respect in fulfillment of the Law.

Why must you add to it?

This article comes pretty close to how I feel about it.

Examining the Roman Catholic view of Mary

As far as we're concerned there is no addition to the deposit of faith, Zguy. You are looking at all of the Marian doctrines through your scripture only lens. However, regarding Mary as Theotokos (Mother of God), why can't you just admit it? In what harm does it do you to use simple logic regarding the fact? I don't even see how that would take away from Protestant theology to do so, so it baffles me. The only conclusion I can come to is that to do so would not be in keeping with the underlying anti-Catholicism of the Protestant mindset.

I skimmed the article, and there are some truths about the Catholic faith stated there and then a few misconceptions (no surprise). If I have a mind to when I have time I'll go over them with you if you wish. I did notice that the article does not address Theotokos at all, which is the foremost Marian doctrine, and it kind of makes me wonder why.

Btw, this already went bad when a certain non-Catholic had to pipe in and make erroneous statements about the Catholic faith (again) pretty much creating divisiveness and tearing asunder an ecumenical dialogue that was going quite well until then.

[Zguy28]

Originally Posted by Radiant1

As far as we're concerned there is no addition to the deposit of faith, Zguy. You are looking at all of the Marian doctrines through your scripture only lens. However, regarding Mary as Theotokos (Mother of God), why can't you just admit it? In what harm does it do you to use simple logic regarding the fact? I don't even see how that would take away from Protestant theology to do so, so it baffles me. The only conclusion I can come to is that to do so would not be in keeping with the underlying anti-Catholicism of the Protestant mindset.

I skimmed the article, and there are some truths about the Catholic faith stated there and then a few misconceptions (no surprise). If I have a mind to when I have time I'll go over them with you if you wish. I did notice that the article does not address Theotokos at all, which is the foremost Marian doctrine, and it kind of makes me wonder why.

Btw, this already went bad when a certain non-Catholic had to pipe in and make erroneous statements about the Catholic faith (again) pretty much creating divisiveness and tearing asunder an ecumenical dialogue that was going quite well until then.

For what its worth, I have no issue with referring to Mary as the "God-bearer". And I suspect neither do most of my Reformed brethren.

Where I run into difficulty is indeed "Mother of God". I get what you say, trust me. I understand your reasoning, I don't agree though.

And I do view things through Scripture-only eyes, just as you do through Scripture+Tradition eyes.

I wouldn't necessarily have too much of an issue with "oral apostolic traditions" but that is not what I see coming from the Roman church. I see things, like the Assumption, which has no external evidence amongst the ante-nicene fathers, nor internal in the bible (it is a stretch to claim Revelation teaches it, let alone base dogma on an uncertain passage), being proclaimed under that banner and I reject it.

Anyway,the question we are asking you is:
Is Mary responsible in any maternal way for any of Jesus's divine attributes or divine nature? Did she beget the eternal Son?

If yes, then He must be a created being and you have joined the Jehovah's Witness's.

If no, then she is not the Mother of God, but rather the God-bearer, blessed and chosen vessel to deliver the incarnate Son.

Its a rather distinct difference in our eyes, as "mother of God" implies divinity, which you deny (as you should).

Then we get into all the stuff Starman is always talking about with "Queen of Heaven", "Mother of the church" (I get the whole second Eve analogy btw), and ever special "Co-Redemptrix". I think that last one is the one that particularly sticks in our crawl as it makes Mary somehow involved in the process of redemption. What happened to those redeemed through the gospel before she died (or was assumed as you claim)?

[hotcoffee]

Just for the record.... it really upsets me that a discussion of the Lord's Prayer can be turned into a debate about the divinity of Mary....

That to me is an issue....

That to me is not a good thing at all....

Just saying.... IMHO it's sad...

I don't understand the concept.... why would anyone pray to Mary when God is listening and wants to hear from you?