Matthew 6:5-15 Prayer

[Zguy28]

I think we can put to bed the argument here regarding the hypostatic union. Jesus was fully God and fully human. Two complete natures united in one person.

To believe otherwise is indeed heresy of one sort or another, and I pretty sure Stallion does agree with this doctrine.

In case anybody wants some lite reading:

What Is the Hypostatic#Union? - Desiring God

[Radiant1]

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

Are you listening to yourself? "God chose to be born"??? So he had a beginning according to you. Jesus referred to God as BOTH His Father and His equal so he spoke from His 2 natures. The man Jesus was born; God was not born so save the heretic word for yourself.

This thread is about prayer and that's what I'm addressing. YOU brought up the issue of "babbling like pagans" and I decided to bring out another point about it.

Please re-read posts #11, #17 and #36 with comprehension.

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

YOU made this about me. Stick to the topic and get off of me! All you whiners immediately come after me. PROVE ME WRONG using the Bible! If you can't, then we'll just disagree but YOU'RE the one who goes after the person because you have nothing valid to counter with.

Don't flatter yourself. I haven't even attempted to go after you, nor do I desire to waste my time in such a manner.

Originally Posted by libby

If you want to bring it back to prayer...and I know this has to have been brought up somewhere else in all of these years, but clearly you conveniently ignore Revelations 4, "and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. "
Now, I presume that this is another one of the exceptions, but here we go anyway. Is this Biblical example of repetitive prayer "babbling"? Or, just our repetitive prayer, because we are Catholic?

Not to mention Jesus Himself in the Garden of Gethsemane, Matthew 26:39-44. Repetitive prayer at it's finest.

Originally Posted by hotcoffee

I'm so happy this is cleared up in my mind. I really thought Catholics were praying to her instead.

It's good to understand. I'm so happy.... sincerely

And I'm glad you understand the truth of the matter (thank you libby). I think the angels are rejoicing.

[Radiant1]

Originally Posted by Zguy28

To believe otherwise is indeed heresy of one sort or another, and I pretty sure Stallion does agree with this doctrine.

I thought so too, but after reading what he wrote in this thread I'm not so sure.

[ItalianScallion (Premo)]

Originally Posted by libby

Really? God chose to come into the world as a man, does that clear it up for you? Are you denying that He was born of the Virgin Mary? Mary was the mother of Jesus Christ, the person, not just His human nature. If you demand to separate out his Divinity to accomplish your disdain for Mary, then you have to separate out His humanity, too, which takes away from the Sacrifice.

See why indoctrination is soooooo dangerous? The clear implication in the Hail Mary is that she is God's mother. Deny it and twist it all you want, it's clearly said. Jesus was always God. He took on (became) flesh for His earthly ministry. As Zguy said: "100% God, 100% human". GOD HAS NO MOTHER!

Originally Posted by libby

If you want to bring it back to prayer...and I know this has to have been brought up somewhere else in all of these years, but clearly you conveniently ignore Revelations 4, "and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. " Is this Biblical example of repetitive prayer "babbling"? Or, just our repetitive prayer, because we are Catholic?

Another Scripture twister. The 4 living creatures aren't praying, they're PRAISING. There is a difference. Soo easy yet soo hard for some...

Originally Posted by hotcoffee

I'm so happy this is cleared up in my mind. I really thought Catholics were praying to her instead.
It's good to understand. I'm so happy.... sincerely

Don't let them fool you HC. Mary is a revered goddess. Ask them about all of the special masses, holydays, statues, prayers and other things that they idolize her with...

[libby]

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

See why indoctrination is soooooo dangerous? The clear implication in the Hail Mary is that she is God's mother. Deny it and twist it all you want, it's clearly said. Jesus was always God. He took on (became) flesh for His earthly ministry. As Zguy said: "100% God, 100% human". GOD HAS NO MOTHER!

Another Scripture twister. The 4 living creatures aren't praying, they're PRAISING. There is a difference. Soo easy yet soo hard for some...

Don't let them fool you HC. Mary is a revered goddess. Ask them about all of the special masses, holydays, statues, prayers and other things that they idolize her with...

And the clear implication with your theology is that He is not fully human. Twist it all you want, but if He is not fully human....well, just fill in the blanks with all of the logical (not to mention eternal) consequences...
Pray/praise...you're just looking or something to be pissed about. Do you praise people for...oh, anything? Praise is not worship. Now, THAT is reserved only for God, but if you say you don't praise others I'll say you're full of bull again. Just as I don't believe your Bible is on the floor next to your toilet. Just like I don't believe that you've never "spoken to" a loved one who has passed away. Just like I don't believe you've never bowed your head onto your Bible after you've read the sacred passages.

[onel0126]

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

Another Scripture twister. The 4 living creatures aren't praying, they're PRAISING. There is a difference. Soo easy yet soo hard for some...

[hotcoffee]

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

Don't let them fool you HC. Mary is a revered goddess. Ask them about all of the special masses, holydays, statues, prayers and other things that they idolize her with...

Ok... so now we're down to the real thing here...

I believe that Jesus Christ is sitting on the right hand of God the Father. I believe that He is interceeding for me. Whenever I call out He says "Father, she's one of your children."

Now I believe that if I ask you all to pray for me, then you pray to God and Jesus says "Your children are asking for this"

So now here's my question... This is for everyone... The Bible says that Jesus is going to come back for the "quick and the dead" in Christ. If Mary is part of the quick and the dead.... which I believe she is.... then she must be dead because she is not walking around today.... then how is her prayer going to work?

[Dixie]

Originally Posted by libby

The Rosary quotes Scripture! "Hail, Mary, Full of Grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and Blessed is the Fruit of Thy Womb, Jesus"!

Holy mackerel! You just reject anything Catholics out of hand. From the man who quotes Scripture and says Scripture is the be all-end all source of Truth. As soon as a Catholic does it there must be some heretical reason behind it.

You were soooooo poorly catechized it is unbelieveable! You know nothing of the Fullness of Truth.

This is neither here nor there but I have a adult child who is autistic, mentally retarded, and epileptic. There are probably other issues as well, he's difficult, it's difficult to teach him or even speak to him about anything that he's not interested in. I've tried the basics of religion, but it wasn't worth the fight.

At any rate, I pray a lot and make a lot of novenas. The Hail Mary is said in all of them.

A few days ago, my son came into my room and recited the entire prayer. I was pretty astonished thought something had finally sunk in.

So I asked and he told me he learned it from Jurassic Park. It was the scene when the T-rex heads for the jeep and lawyer leaves the kids behind, runs to an outhouse, shuts the door, sits on the toilet and recites the Hail Mary.

Guess you have to know my son to know how funny that it but trust me it was a riot.

[onel0126]

Q: "How can we be assured that Mary and the saints in heaven can hear our prayers?”

A: Well, aside from the fact that the Magisterium has ruled on the issue and that Apostolic Tradition teaches it (both of which are sufficient to prove the matter), the Bible also teaches it.

In the book of Psalms, which was the hymn book for the Temple in Jerusalem, we sing to those in the heavenly court and exhort them:

“Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Psalm 103:20-21, RSV, as below)

The fact that those in the heavenly court can hear our prayers is also indicated in the book of Revelation, where we read:

“And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.” (Revelation 8:3-4)

Thus those saints who are angels have a role in presenting our prayers to God in an intercessory manner. (Angels are also saints, as indicated by the fact that the Bible applies the Hebrew word for saint/holy one — qaddiysh — to them, cf. Daniel 4:13, 23, 8:13. Thus we speak of St. Michael the Archangel, St. Gabriel, St. Raphael, etc.).

Since the Ascension of Christ, when Jesus took the Old Testament saints from sheol to heaven, large numbers of humans saints have also been in heaven, and Revelation indicates they also present our prayers to God:

“And when he [the Lamb] had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Revelation 5:8).

The twenty-four elders represent the hierarchy of the people of God in heaven (just as the four living creatures represent the hierarchy of the angels of God in heaven), and here they are shown presenting our prayers to God under the symbol of incense (which is, in fact, what incense symbolizes in church, since it is a pleasing smell which rises upward).

One might object, saying, “But maybe those weren’t prayers to the saints but prayers to God!” This may well be true. However, a person who says this only digs the hole deeper for himself since this would mean that those in heaven are aware of prayers which weren’t even directed to them!

[hotcoffee]

Originally Posted by hotcoffee

Prayer

Matthew 6:5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

9 “This, then, is how you should pray:“‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation,[a]but deliver us from the evil one.[b]’

14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

a.Matthew 6:13 The Greek for temptation can also mean testing.
b.Matthew 6:13 Or from evil; some late manuscripts one, / for yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen


We could stay on this one for a while. I don't think we will, but we could if we broke it down into the verses.

Babbling on like Pagans

I've heard I don't know how many thousands of people who stood in front for a service, a prayer meeting, a Sunday School class, a Bible study, and a multitude of other meetings.... who used all kinds of flowery speech, droning on and on and on... I've even said "Amen" out loud.... but that just made them go on even longer....

So what should you do when you get tapped to lead the prayer? I've declined. The pastor was very good about it. He just went on to ask someone else.

Our Father

Have we seen Jesus tell the people that we are all His children yet? I don't think so.

He's saying to us.... talk to God like you are talking to your Father.... Naturally...

The parts of prayer

Every now and then it's good to go back to the basics. This link will take you to a children's study page that does a great job of putting the Lord's prayer in basic language. It's only one page and very easy to understand.

Forgive others

Back to character again. Be good to others so they will have a chance to be good to you.

I'm sure there is a lot more that can be said about these few verses. Like I've said, I've heard I don't know how many sermons and taken I don't know how many studies on the matter.

Pray to Him... talk to Him... it's part of the relationship...

I just thought I'd like to bring this back to the top again.