Matthew 6:5-15 Prayer

[ItalianScallion (Premo)]

Originally Posted by libby

And the clear implication with your theology is that He is not fully human...

What part of 100% God & 100% human did you miss me saying?

Originally Posted by libby

Pray/praise...you're just looking or something to be pissed about. Do you praise people for...oh, anything? Praise is not worship. Now, THAT is reserved only for God, but if you say you don't praise others I'll say you're full of bull again. Just as I don't believe your Bible is on the floor next to your toilet. Just like I don't believe that you've never "spoken to" a loved one who has passed away. Just like I don't believe you've never bowed your head onto your Bible after you've read the sacred passages.

I praised you (in person) because you are a beautiful & classy lady who has done a great job raising all those kids and I admire you for that. I did not PRAY to you though did I?

Whether I speak to my deceased loved ones or not is irrelevant and in no way implies they hear me. And I do NOT kiss or bow down to my Bible. It sits on my desk for the nightly radio Bible study.

Originally Posted by hotcoffee

The Bible says that Jesus is going to come back for the "quick and the dead" in Christ. If Mary is part of the quick and the dead.... which I believe she is.... then she must be dead because she is not walking around today.... then how is her prayer going to work?

It doesn't work but someone will come up with some Magisterium Tradition of Confuscianism to make it sound like it does. Mary is physically dead but spiritually alive.

Originally Posted by onel0126

Q: "How can we be assured that Mary and the saints in heaven can hear our prayers?”
A: Well, aside from the fact that the Magisterium has ruled on the issue and that Apostolic Tradition teaches it (both of which are sufficient to prove the matter), the Bible also teaches it. In the book of Psalms, which was the hymn book for the Temple in Jerusalem, we sing to those in the heavenly court and exhort them:
“Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Psalm 103:20-21, RSV, as below)

"Bless the Lord" does NOT mean pray to the dead. Onel, you're Scripture mis-understanding is atrocious and not even of this world. It's nothing but Catholic, Scripture twisting, indoctrinated and nowhere close to what that passage means. That's like saying: Elvis is still alive because my living room is white.

The Psalmist (David) is simply saying for all God's servants, hosts & ministers to bless the Lord for who He is and what He has done. NOTHING there indicates praying to the dead. God DID say this though:

10 "Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord..." (Deuteronomy 18)

19 "When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God?" Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?"(Isaiah 8) [NIV1984]

Originally Posted by Onel0126

The fact that those in the heavenly court can hear our prayers is also indicated in the book of Revelation, where we read:
“And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.” (Revelation 8:3-4) Thus those saints who are angels have a role in presenting our prayers to God in an intercessory manner. (Angels are also saints, as indicated by the fact that the Bible applies the Hebrew word for saint/holy one — qaddiysh — to them, cf. Daniel 4:13, 23, 8:13. Thus we speak of St. Michael the Archangel, St. Gabriel, St. Raphael, etc.).

Your conclusions are totally inept. Saints are NOT angels and vv. The angels may be able to hear our prayers (not sure of this though) but those prayers are not TO them or TO the dead saints. What have you allowed them to do to your poor misguided soul?

Originally Posted by Onel0126

Since the Ascension of Christ, when Jesus took the Old Testament saints from sheol to heaven, large numbers of humans saints have also been in heaven, and Revelation indicates they also present our prayers to God:
“And when he [the Lamb] had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Revelation 5:8). The twenty-four elders represent the hierarchy of the people of God in heaven (just as the four living creatures represent the hierarchy of the angels of God in heaven), and here they are shown presenting our prayers to God under the symbol of incense (which is, in fact, what incense symbolizes in church, since it is a pleasing smell which rises upward).

THE SAINTS (on earth) WON'T BE PRAYING TO THE ELDERS OR THE ANGELS, they'll be praying to God when this happens. The angels (messengers) & elders held the golden bowls of incense which are symbolic of those prayers. NOTHING anywhere in the Bible indicates that the elders or angels heard those prayers. Does the incense that your people burn in church make audible sounds?

Originally Posted by Onel0126

One might object, saying, “But maybe those weren’t prayers to the saints but prayers to God!” This may well be true. However, a person who says this only digs the hole deeper for himself since this would mean that those in heaven are aware of prayers which weren’t even directed to them!

This one will object. They aren't prayers TO the saints if you'd just read that passage correctly. They are prayers OF the saints who are alive on earth during the end times, praying to God.

[Radiant1]

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

What part of 100% God & 100% human did you miss me saying?

Don't be disingenous. What we didn't miss was you saying this:

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

Jesus is God

Mary was the mother of Jesus, not God.

I then let you know that there is no logic to your statement. I didn't think I needed to spell it out for you, but apparently I do so here it is. If Jesus is God and Mary is the mother of Jesus, then Mary is mother of God. You then replied with:

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

I think YOU have trouble separating the 2 natures of Jesus...

You're right. I have trouble separating the two natures, because they aren't to be separated. This is when I gave you a warning about the Nestorian heresy. Zguy posted a link for you, here are some quotes from it since you didn't seem to read it, emphasis mine:

Jesus has two complete natures—one fully human and one fully divine. What the doctrine of the hypostatic union teaches is that these two natures are united in one person in the God-man. Jesus is not two persons. He is one person. The hypostatic union is the joining of the divine and the human in the one person of Jesus.

Jesus is not divided. He is not two people. He is one person. As the Chalcedonian Creed states, his two natures are without confusion, without change, without division, and without separation. Jesus is one.

So, again, the Hail Mary is taken directly from scripture and logic from scripture, but yet you continue to take issue with it due to it's repetitive use in the rosary; however, libby and I pointed out that repetitive prayer is found in scripture and Jesus Himself used it (Matthew 26:39-44). Now, you asked us to prove you wrong using the bible; we did. It appears that not only would you continue in heresy but also throw Jesus under the bus in order to continue with your willfully ignorant and ill-advised diatribe against all things Catholic. Although I think you too proud to do it, you have serious need to perform an examination of conscience and get on your knees to ask God for forgiveness.

[cheezgrits]

IS, you hate Catholics. Just admit it.

You're one reason I'm glad I'm not a christian.

If I were, I wouldn't claim you as one.

I'm not misled, you assume too much.

In fact, you may have met me and not even know it.

[ItalianScallion (Premo)]

Originally Posted by Radiant1

If Jesus is God and Mary is the mother of Jesus, then Mary is mother of God. I have trouble separating the two natures, because they aren't to be separated. This is when I gave you a warning about the Nestorian heresy. So, again, the Hail Mary is taken directly from scripture and logic from scripture, but yet you continue to take issue with it due to it's repetitive use in the rosary; however, libby and I pointed out that repetitive prayer is found in scripture and Jesus Himself used it (Matthew 26:39-44). Now, you asked us to prove you wrong using the bible; we did. It appears that not only would you continue in heresy but also throw Jesus under the bus in order to continue with your willfully ignorant and ill-advised diatribe against all things Catholic. Although I think you too proud to do it, you have serious need to perform an examination of conscience and get on your knees to ask God for forgiveness.

So, according to you all, Jesus did wrong when He spoke of His 2 natures differently at different times? He claimed to be God AND claimed to be subordinate to God? (Matt 22 v 41-46) The Jews took BIG issue with that because they refused to admit that He was correct. BTW, just for you: God has NO mother.

Originally Posted by cheezgrits

IS, you hate Catholics. Just admit it.
You're one reason I'm glad I'm not a christian.
If I were, I wouldn't claim you as one.
I'm not misled, you assume too much.
In fact, you may have met me and not even know it.

Actually you're judging me (the very same thing you said I was doing). Do you see into my heart? Just because I "contend" with the people on here passionately doesn't mean I have one iota of hatred towards them. YOU are assuming that about me.

You acknowledge a "Creator" and that's good. I'm just trying to show you who the ONLY Creator is and to tell you that, if you refuse to acknowledge Him, you will be misled and possibly lost.

Actually we have a mutual friend or two so maybe we have met...

[Radiant1]

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

So, according to you all, Jesus did wrong when He spoke of His 2 natures differently at different times? He claimed to be God AND claimed to be subordinate to God? (Matt 22 v 41-46) The Jews took BIG issue with that because they refused to admit that He was correct.

Surely you are out of your mind. Matthew 22:41-46 is reiterating that the Messiah (Jesus) is also God -- "The Lord said to my Lord". There is nothing there that could be indicative of Jesus being subordinate to God as you claim. In fact, it was the opposite. He was telling them that the Messiah was someone greater than the son of David and using David's psalm to prove it. So yes, of course the Jews took issue with it.

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

BTW, just for you: God has NO mother.

We proved you wrong by your own standards. I can't keep you from stating falsehoods if it makes you feel better, but you really need to think about where that desire of yours stems from. I have a pretty good idea from where and whom it originates.

[libby]

The consequences of trying to separate the two natures of Jesus go beyond your desire to take Mary out of the equation.
God became fully human, that includes having a mother. (don't forget that "nothing shall be impossible with God" thing-y)
But if you insist on separating the two things, we lose our salvation, the way I see it, because:
Jesus died, which the Divine cannot do. That means a human died, and a mere human cannot offer an infinite sacrifice for our salvation.

You, IS, cannot have it both ways.

[hotcoffee]

OK.... we are obviously not going to get this solved in this thread.

Christians have been battling this out for decades.... I understand that we all have very strong feelings about prayer.

This bickering, though, is detracting from the Bible Study this thread is part of.

Please stop.... As we read on, if we continue to read on, there will be more than one chance to discuss it again. There is a lot of prayer in the Bible.

Please.... stop... let's allow this thread to stop....

[Zguy28]

Originally Posted by libby

The consequences of trying to separate the two natures of Jesus go beyond your desire to take Mary out of the equation.
God became fully human, that includes having a mother. (don't forget that "nothing shall be impossible with God" thing-y)
But if you insist on separating the two things, we lose our salvation, the way I see it, because:
Jesus died, which the Divine cannot do. That means a human died, and a mere human cannot offer an infinite sacrifice for our salvation.

You, IS, cannot have it both ways.

You guys are starting to pick nits.

They are two separate natures in the sense that they are complete. They are one in the sense that they are united in the personhood of the eternal Son of God, second person of the trinity.

Surely you don't believe that the physical man we know as Jesus of Nazareth (European blue eyes and all! Haha! ) always existed as Jesus of Nazareth in eternity? By reading your post I could begin to think you believe this.

I know you don't, but hopefully you get the point.

The point that IS is making and I agree with, is that one could easily think you believe Mary is the literal mother of Jesus' divine nature. She is not. She is neither that, nor the mother of the person of Jesus Christ, the eternal Son. She is the mother of Jesus of Nazareth, the human nature. Yes, they are united. We get that and agree, but there is also distinction between the two.

Lest we forget again: http://www.theopedia.com/Two_natures_of_Jesus

We all agree on this.

[Zguy28]

Originally Posted by ItalianScallion

What part of 100% God & 100% human did you miss me saying?

IS, perhaps "distinct" is preferable to separate as the most useful term?

[Zguy28]

Originally Posted by hotcoffee

OK.... we are obviously not going to get this solved in this thread.

Christians have been battling this out for decades.... I understand that we all have very strong feelings about prayer.

This bickering, though, is detracting from the Bible Study this thread is part of.

Please stop.... As we read on, if we continue to read on, there will be more than one chance to discuss it again. There is a lot of prayer in the Bible.

Please.... stop... let's allow this thread to stop....

I will cease posting on the Mary topic per your request.