Catholic Church in rich neighboorho New Haven ....

[EmptyTimCup]

ok maybe 125 yrs too late ...

The `Ground Zero mosque’ and the K of C’s mother church


A reader sent me a copy of a July 28, 1879 article in which The New York Times, playing the Fox News role, offered a scathing history of St. Mary’s Church under the title, “An Unprofitable Church: Roman Catholic Troubles in New-Haven.” The church on one of New Haven’s finest residential streets had been dedicated five years earlier, but only after a struggle in which the pastor was pressured to accept an alternate site.

As The Times put it, “When the residents of this aristocratic avenue discovered that they were in danger of seeing a Roman Catholic church spring up among them, with all that the establishment of such a church implied, they bestirred themselves to oppose the project. The wisest of the Roman Catholics here did not favor it, and St. Mary’s was induced to exchange the lot for a good one in some other locality.” But that site was also deemed “too good” for Catholics, so a lesser lot was found. The pastor refused this, according to The Times, and built the church as originally planned on wealthy Hillhouse Avenue.

According to the Times, the parish fell into debt (its parishioners being mainly “servant girls”). “The result shows how foolish were those who persisted in building the church on the spot where it stands,” The Times concluded. “How much spite had to do with it cannot now be ascertained, but the complete history of the negotiations would be very interesting. The edifice was erected beyond the boundaries of the parish, and it invaded the most exclusive homes of wealth and culture. It is an eye-sore on the avenue, a source of annoyance and injury to neighboring residents, and a complete failure as a business enterprise.”

 

[Nucklesack]

ok maybe 125 yrs too late ...

Yep, exactly my point.

Todays Catholic is a Muslim, the very same criticisms, paranoia, and lies were claimed about Catholics, that today are attributed to Muslims.

Interesting (euphanism for sad) how little has changed. Catholics have been besmirched, by other Christian flavors, for more than a 100 years, because of the paranoia about Rome. Then it was the Irish, and in the 40's it was the Japanese, even though many Japanese Americans served honorably and with distinction.

At what point do the paranoid realize, they are displaying the anti-American values, they claim they are protecting?

 

[EmptyTimCup]

one doesn't not have a right not to be offended



Muslims are not the New Catholics / Protestants ..... etc



they do not hijack airliners and fly them into buildings ... Saw Peoples Heads off ... strap bombs to pregnant mentally retarded women and blow them up in markets

yeah lecture me about Catholics and Protestants blowing up each other in Northern Ireland .... IMHO that is more Irish fighting English domination and centuries old invasion .... or a few people bombing Abortion clinics ....


but these are the acts of a few ... not the Death Culture that is Islam ....




Islam is a SocioPolitical system not just a Religion .... Islam is a Totalitarian Political Structure ... everything for the Religion nothing outside the Religion

 

[Nucklesack]

one doesn't not have a right not to be offended

Be sure your not mixing what occurs in America with what occurs elsewhere.

One doesnt have the right not to be offended when a moderate Muslim Iman wants to build an Interfaith community center in New York City either.

Muslims are not the New Catholics / Protestants ..... etc

Never said Muslims are the new Protestants. Might want to reread my post again

The misinformation and lies being attributed to Muslims today, are the same as they were towards Catholics (your the one that posted the article, should have maybe read it first), Irish and the Japanese. These were all examples of Anti-American values, that in retrospect are shamefull.

they do not hijack airliners and fly them into buildings ... Saw Peoples Heads off ... strap bombs to pregnant mentally retarded women and blow them up in markets

What does this have to do with a Community Center in New York? Nothing, your trying to make a point and having to mix apples and oranges to do it.

Japan the country, attacked us in Pearl Harbor. Jim Lee, the Japanese American who was born in the California did not. Just as it was wrong to punish Jim Lee, its wrong to punish Iman Rauf, who has spoken out against Radical Islam and Terrorists, for what Radicals do.

yeah lecture me about Catholics and Protestants blowing up each other in Northern Ireland .... IMHO that is more Irish fighting English domination and centuries old invasion .... or a few people bombing Abortion clinics ....

Nah i dont need to point to Ireland, if i wanted examples of Christian Attrocities, i'd point to Bosnia, Rwanda or Nazi Germany.

But then that wasnt the point. The point was the irony of how Catholics were treated, with how Muslims are treated today.

but these are the acts of a few ... not the Death Culture that is Islam ....



Islam is a SocioPolitical system not just a Religion .... Islam is a Totalitarian Political Structure ... everything for the Religion nothing outside the Religion

Death Culture?
Islamafascism?

Sure did get your talking points in there didnt you?

We have Muslims that live in Western Culture, they do nothing wrong, pay their taxes, abide by the laws and live their life no differently than you or I, in reality they are no different than you or I.

Before Radical Islam took control, there were predominately Muslim countries that were as modern and civilized as any Western Country. Lebanon was considered the Paris of the Middle East, before the 70's. What changed? It wasnt Islam, these countries followed Islam before the 70s and were members of Western Culture.

Radicalism changed these countries, not Religion.

 

[Mongo53]

Yep, exactly my point.

Todays Catholic is a Muslim, the very same criticisms, paranoia, and lies were claimed about Catholics, that today are attributed to Muslims.

Interesting (euphanism for sad) how little has changed. Catholics have been besmirched, by other Christian flavors, for more than a 100 years, because of the paranoia about Rome. Then it was the Irish, and in the 40's it was the Japanese, even though many Japanese Americans served honorably and with distinction.

At what point do the paranoid realize, they are displaying the anti-American values, they claim they are protecting?

This is moral equalavelence, the issues involved with prejudice against Catholic 100 years ago are NOT the same as the issue involved with people's concern with Islam and Mid-East Cultures. You're oversimplfying the issue.

In the article and was typical in that day, Catholic Churches were more involved with the poor and lot of recent immigrants came from heavily catholic areas, while the more established and wealthier people in America came from the Protestant traditions. This was class warfare at that time.

There are certainly Muslims that do assimilate and try to promote assimilation into their host country. This should applauded and encouraged, Muslims should be given the benefit of the doubt that they are working to assimilate themselves into our society and become part of the melting pot.

BUT, and proportion matters, we have seen that enought to be concerned bring with them the values of the culture that is too alien

If you post a 100 year old article about how the police were finding dozens of Catholic Churchs that were assisting and involved with terrorist plots, hundreds of Catholic Churchs that were fomenting violence and discotent, Catholic Priest demanding Papal Law be instituted in America or Catholics be allowed to have their own set of laws and courts for papal law seperate from the rest of the country, Catholic Priest preaching passages from the Bible telling followers to attack others in the name of god, Catholics attacking others in the Name of God, etc, etc. They are NOT the same.

Of course NOT all Muslims and Mosques are like that, the problem is, even if its a minority, way to many are like that and the lack of action within their own community to combat and condemn these things, does raise legitimate concern.

And, IMO, it is a culture problem NOT a religion problem, but those two things are intrisicantly linked, especially from a culture that places religion before all things authoritarianly. You only make the problem worse when you excuse inexecusable behaviour with a simple moral equalavlence and state its the same as people treated another religion in the past that was wrong.

 

[Toxick]

At what point do the paranoid realize, they are displaying the anti-American values, they claim they are protecting?

Around about the same time telepathy is commonplace, and is reaching it's full potential.

 

[Nucklesack]

Around about the same time telepathy is commonplace, and is reaching it's full potential.

Makes you wish Men who stare at Goats was a true story

 

[Mongo53]

One doesnt have the right not to be offended when a moderate Muslim Iman wants to build an Interfaith community center in New York City either.

Which is why I condone that any Muslim that claims "America is insensative to Muslims" deserves to be laughed at in their face. Muslims do NOT have a right to NOT be offended, the same rules apply to them as the rest of America. They have a right to build it there, no matter how insensative it appears to others, they also need to learn to NOT be myopic and then insist they are offended every time they do NOT get their way.

Never said Muslims are the new Protestants. Might want to reread my post again

Todays Catholic is a Muslim...

Grammatically it made no sense to me, BUT, I got the gist of your point. You might want to reread EmptyTimCup's post again, because he said Catholic/Protestant.

The misinformation and lies being attributed to Muslims today, are the same as they were towards Catholics (your the one that posted the article, should have maybe read it first), Irish and the Japanese. These were all examples of Anti-American values, that in retrospect are shamefull.

And thus the Moral Equalavelence, the shameful misinformation of groups in the past is NOT the same as today, with people that have concerns with real events and actions, as well, most people in society has bent over backwards to be sensative and fairly treat moderate muslims in todays society.

What does this have to do with a Community Center in New York? Nothing, your trying to make a point and having to mix apples and oranges to do it.

That will contain and by definition is a Mosque, where did you get your talking points?

Japan the country, attacked us in Pearl Harbor. Jim Lee, the Japanese American who was born in the California did not. Just as it was wrong to punish Jim Lee, its wrong to punish Iman Rauf, who has spoken out against Radical Islam and Terrorists, for what Radicals do.

Iman Rauf has also made statements in support of Radical Islam and Sharia Law being established in America, they should be concerning, and people should NOT ignore some of the facts just to push their own agenda.

Nah i dont need to point to Ireland, if i wanted examples of Christian Attrocities, i'd point to Bosnia, Rwanda or Nazi Germany.

Bosnia: The latest of a series of Ethnic War, that lead to the noun for the region to become a verb to characterize Ethinic Division, Balkanize? Where Christians came to the Defense of Muslims? That is your example?

Rwanda: An Ethinic Genocide where Christian fought and killed Christian, and many Christians wrote and studied about how this was a failure of the Christian Missions for such violence to occur? This is your example?

Nazi Germany: Where the leaders pursued a cult like perversion of Christianity, but it was NOT the motivation behind their conflict, where Christians came to the defense of Jews? This is your example?

You need to dig a little deeper into the actual facts before you present your over-simplfied examples. At least you could have gone back a thousand years and spoke about the Crusades, while ignoring the Jihads, the Christian and Jewish reformations and the lack of such in the Muslim faiths.

But then that wasnt the point. The point was the irony of how Catholics were treated, with how Muslims are treated today..

There is NO irony, your comparing apples and oranges and making a moral equlavelence.

Death Culture?
Islamafascism?

Sure did get your talking points in there didnt you?

Islamaphobia?
Inter-Faith Community Center?

The terms sum up the concept nicely, no is using talking points any more than you. Inter Faith Community Center, may NOT be an Incorrect term to use in the debate, but its disengenous to contradict someone that states its a Mosque, because it is very much a Mosque and that term is just as correct to use as the more PR based Inter-Faith Community Center.

We have Muslims that live in Western Culture, they do nothing wrong, pay their taxes, abide by the laws and live their life no differently than you or I, in reality they are no different than you or I.

No one is complaining about them, they appluad and extend an open hand to them, your comparing apples and oranges.

Before Radical Islam took control, there were predominately Muslim countries that were as modern and civilized as any Western Country. Lebanon was considered the Paris of the Middle East, before the 70's. What changed? It wasnt Islam, these countries followed Islam before the 70s and were members of Western Culture.

Radicalism changed these countries, not Religion.

Read my post above, I agree with some of that, although Lebanon was more the victim of war by Proxy against Israel, but Radical Islam is arguably at the root of that, even though moderate Muslims of the region are manipulated into hating Israel.

Your still ignoring the problem and making empty platitudes. The region is still very much stuck in the middle ages in attitudes and culture. That is a problem and ignoring it, and mischaracterizing the concerns and efforts to fix it, as Islamaphobia or prejudice is only patronizing those bad elements and making the problem worse.

 

[EmptyTimCup]

Death Culture?
Islamafascism?

Sure did get your talking points in there didnt you?

We have Muslims that live in Western Culture, they do nothing wrong, pay their taxes, abide by the laws and live their life no differently than you or I, in reality they are no different than you or I. (ah huh as they have lived in Western Europe until someone drew a cartoon then there were riots in the streets, death threats ... not a very peaceful bunch)

Before Radical Islam took control, there were predominately Muslim countries that were as modern and civilized as any Western Country. Lebanon was considered the Paris of the Middle East, before the 70's. What changed? It wasn't Islam, these countries followed Islam before the 70s and were members of Western Culture. (it was the PLO - if that is racialism for you ... )

Radicalism changed these countries, not Religion.

Lebanon:

1920: The League of Nations creates ‘modern day Lebanon’ by carving out parts of Syria to create a predominantly Christian country in the Middle East in the French sphere of influence.
1943: Lebanon gains independence from France. A 1932 census which had shown that Christians formed 54% of the population is used as a basis for the assigning all levels of government bureaucracy. Roles were divided between Sunni and Shia Muslims, Druze and Christian groups allocating the Presidency to a Maronite Christian, Prime Minister to a Sunni Muslim, and Speaker of the House to a Shi’ite Muslim.
1948: Founding of the State of Israel. Palestinian refugees begin to arrive in Lebanon
1958: Civil war narrowly averted by arrival of US troops to help reassert government authority
1960s: Palestinian groups in Lebanon launch periodic attacks on Israel. Israel retaliates with raids on Beirut
1970: The Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) is expelled from Jordan and relocates to Lebanon
1975: The ‘bus massacre’ of Palestinians, allegedly in response to an earlier Palestinian attack on a church, sparks the 15-year Lebanese civil war
1976: Syrian troops enter Lebanon in an attempt to stop the civil war and curb Palestinian activities
1978: Israel launches a major ground offensive, occupying southern Lebanon to the Litani river. UN resolution 425 calls on Israel to withdraw and establishes UNIFIL (UN Force for Lebanon) to oversee withdrawal. Israel withdraws, but passes control of south Lebanon to a proxy Christian militia under Major Haddad

seems like a pretty quiet co existence until the 1970's after a few year of the PLO moving in ....


and replace Palestinian Groups with Arab Groups there never was a "Palestine" language, or country or culture ... all made up by the Arabs after Israel was formed in 1948 ......



and yeah death cult ... I posted an article in the last 2 weeks ....

[ a ten yr old boy is afraid he might one day have to kill his best friend, a Christian, because Islam tells him it must be so .... and this was taught in schools in Iraq .... and it is much worse in so called Palestinian, controlled media around Israel ]

 

[Mongo53]

Makes you wish Men who stare at Goats was a true story

But it was a true story.

OK, the movie was vastly exeggerated and highly stylized, but many of the goofy things they show have a pebble of truth behind them as they where quicky experiments done during the cold war, as well as counter-intelligence operatons. My impression is, the movie was fiction with some truth as a root for the plot, the movie did NOT give anyone a true picture of the real story or the actual facts.

 

[Nucklesack]

Which is why I condone that any Muslim that claims "America is insensative to Muslims" deserves to be laughed at in their face. Muslims do NOT have a right to NOT be offended, the same rules apply to them as the rest of America. They have a right to build it there, no matter how insensative it appears to others, they also need to learn to NOT be myopic and then insist they are offended every time they do NOT get their way.

We agree

Grammatically it made no sense to me, BUT, I got the gist of your point. You might want to reread EmptyTimCup's post again, because he said Catholic/Protestant.

The irony of EmptyTimCups post is the Protestants and Baptists were the ones warning about the encroaching Catholics

And thus the Moral Equalavelence, the shameful misinformation of groups in the past is NOT the same as today, with people that have concerns with real events and actions, as well, most people in society has bent over backwards to be sensative and fairly treat moderate muslims in todays society.

This isnt a new discussion, while it maybe new to you. Reread the arguments that have been on this board about (some) Christian paranoia about Muslims

That will contain and by definition is a Mosque, where did you get your talking points?

I based my opinion on what the Cordoba Center/Park51 posted when they applied for the permit

The design includes a 500-seat auditorium, theater, performing arts center, fitness center, swimming pool, basketball court, childcare area, bookstore, culinary school, art studio, food court, September 11 memorial, and prayer space that could accommodate 1,000–2,000 people.

THe prayer space is not denominational.

Iman Rauf has also made statements in support of Radical Islam and Sharia Law being established in America, they should be concerning, and people should NOT ignore some of the facts just to push their own agenda.

He has? Really? Or did he make statements that were construed to support Radical Islam, until you read the speaches/statements in context? I've seen many posts claiming Rauf supported radical Islam, and claimed the US killed more than the terrorists.

Until you read the full speech. Then you realize what he said, and what was reported are a bit (lot) different.

Bosnia: The latest of a series of Ethnic War, that lead to the noun for the region to become a verb to characterize Ethinic Division, Balkanize? Where Christians came to the Defense of Muslims? That is your example?

Unfortunately the Christians came after the other Christians killed and burried thousands of Muslims in mass graves.

Rwanda: An Ethinic Genocide where Christian fought and killed Christian, and many Christians wrote and studied about how this was a failure of the Christian Missions for such violence to occur? This is your example?

It was an example of Christian attrocities, thanks for supporting the statement. (though it wasnt just Christians killing Christians was it?)

Nazi Germany: Where the leaders pursued a cult like perversion of Christianity, but it was NOT the motivation behind their conflict, where Christians came to the defense of Jews? This is your example?

Old Argument, but I'll remove Hitlers continued use of the New Testament and Jesus for his justification of the Holocaust. Why did Hitler feel it was important to link Christian Values and Jesus with the persecution of Jews and other Untermenschen? What was the primary faith of those who committed the acts? That without touching the Catholic Church's collusion with Hitler, the Christian Muslim concentration camps in Poland, nor the Concentration Camp loot the Church had to return (how'd it get there?)

You need to dig a little deeper into the actual facts before you present your over-simplfied examples. At least you could have gone back a thousand years and spoke about the Crusades, while ignoring the Jihads, the Christian and Jewish reformations and the lack of such in the Muslim faiths.

Nope i used modern examples for a reason, typically anything older gets thrown out as no longer valid.

There is NO irony, your comparing apples and oranges and making a moral equlavelence.



Islamaphobia?
Inter-Faith Community Center?

The terms sum up the concept nicely, no is using talking points any more than you. Inter Faith Community Center, may NOT be an Incorrect term to use in the debate, but its disengenous to contradict someone that states its a Mosque, because it is very much a Mosque and that term is just as correct to use as the more PR based Inter-Faith Community Center.

Its only very much a mosque in regards to arguments against it. At this point, everyone on both sides have circled the wagons, which is sad as the original intention for the center has been bastardized.

No one is complaining about them, they appluad and extend an open hand to them, your comparing apples and oranges.


Read my post above, I agree with some of that, although Lebanon was more the victim of war by Proxy against Israel, but Radical Islam is arguably at the root of that, even though moderate Muslims of the region are manipulated into hating Israel.

Your still ignoring the problem and making empty platitudes. The region is still very much stuck in the middle ages in attitudes and culture. That is a problem and ignoring it, and mischaracterizing the concerns and efforts to fix it, as Islamaphobia or prejudice is only patronizing those bad elements and making the problem worse.

you might want to read up on the old arguments before entering into the conversation. While some Islamic countries today, are "backwards" they havent always been so. The precurssor to this was Radical Islam.

 

[JoeRider]

Yep, exactly my point.

Todays Catholic is a Muslim, the very same criticisms, paranoia, and lies were claimed about Catholics, that today are attributed to Muslims.

I

Give me a break. Except for some Irish Catholic associated with the IRA, they are not even close. Throughout recent history (200+ years) the Catholic church has been providing community services at levels no other church has. Something our government seems to be modeling entitlement programs from.

As much as everyone hates the Catholic Church, I bet you can cite something positive that the church has done for someone you know or know of. Something I can not say about Muslims.

 

[Mongo53]

This isnt a new discussion, while it maybe new to you. Reread the arguments that have been on this board about (some) Christian paranoia about Muslims

I'm NOT responsible for the conduct of other posters, it doesn't change the fact you make a false argument of moral equivalence between two very different issue that are NOT the same.

I based my opinion on what the Cordoba Center/Park51 posted when they applied for the permit

The design includes a 500-seat auditorium, theater, performing arts center, fitness center, swimming pool, basketball court, childcare area, bookstore, culinary school, art studio, food court, September 11 memorial, and prayer space that could accommodate 1,000–2,000 people.

THe prayer space is not denominational.

It does NOT say it is Non-Denominational, it just generically states its a prayer space, in an Islamic Community Center? Half the Mosques in the U.S. are Community Centers and Mosque. Muslims and Islamic publications refer to it as a Mosque, articles and opinion pieces supportive of it refer to it as a Mosque.

The New York City community board endorsed the Cordoba House, a community center and mosque planned for construction near Ground Zero.

Cordoba Center is not just a mosque: Its a community ‘YMCA’#|#Muslaman Times

To begin with the facts, actually it is an Islamic community center and mosque.

Local Muslim Leader’s Take on The Ground Zero Mosque | AltDaily : Creating and celebrating local culture in Norfolk and all of Hampton Roads.

He has? Really? Or did he make statements that were construed to support Radical Islam, until you read the speaches/statements in context? I've seen many posts claiming Rauf supported radical Islam, and claimed the US killed more than the terrorists.

Until you read the full speech. Then you realize what he said, and what was reported are a bit (lot) different.

Imam Raul is a prominent member of the Perdana Global Peace Organisation, founded by a viscous anti-Semite, and responsible for the violent blockage running on Israel. The founder made outright slurs in 2010, what has Raul done to contradict this?

Aaron Klein: Do you believe that the state department is correct in designating Hamas as a terrorist organization?

Imam Rauf: Um, well, I mean. Look, I am not a politician. I try to avoid the issues of. The issue of terrorism is a very complex question. There was an attempt in the 90’s to have the UN define what terrorism and say who is a terrorist. There was no ability to find agreement on that… and I am a bridge builder.

Aaron Klein: But I am asking, is Hamas a terrorist organization?

Imam Rauf: Aaron, Aaron, my work, my work, I’ve defined my work as a bridge builder. I do not want to be placed, neither will I accept to be placed, in a position of being put in a position where I am the target of one side or another.

Yea, this is someone that clearly rejects Terrorism with Moral Clarity.

Interviewer: And throughout the Muslim world, there is also strong opposition to America's foreign policy, particularly in the Middle East because of its support of Israel and economic sanctions against Iraq.
Feisal: It is a reaction against the US government politically, where we espouse principles of democracy and human rights, and where we ally ourselves with oppressive regimes in many of these countries.
Interviewer: Are you in any way suggesting that we in the United States deserved what happened?
Feisal: I wouldn't say that the United States deserved what happened, but United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened.
Interviewer: You say that we're an accessory? How?
Feisal: Because we have been accessory to a lot of innocent lives dying in the world. In fact, in the most direct sense, Osama bin Laden is made in the USA.

Hmmm, didn't have any problem finding Moral Clarity when it came to blaming the U.S.A.

The guy wax's poetically about Shari Law in the U.S., keeps it General and Vague, but it certainly gives the impression he wants at least something at least similar to the European Concessions, with the a subset of Judges that would rule on Sharia compliance.

Please, if any of this is out of context, please set the context for us.

Bosnia: The latest of a series of Ethnic War, that lead to the noun for the region to become a verb to characterize Ethinic Division, Balkanize? Where Christians came to the Defense of Muslims? That is your example?

Unfortunately the Christians came after the other Christians killed and burried thousands of Muslims in mass graves.

European Pacifism, how does that qualify as a Christian Motivation, when did the Muslims come to their brothers defense? Oh, thats right, never.

Rwanda: An Ethinic Genocide where Christian fought and killed Christian, and many Christians wrote and studied about how this was a failure of the Christian Missions for such violence to occur? This is your example?

It was an example of Christian attrocities, thanks for supporting the statement. (though it wasnt just Christians killing Christians was it?)

You contradict yourself, its a Christian atrocity, because it was Christians involved, but then state it wasn't all Christians? So, now its NOT a Christian atrocity?

Christians killing Christians, but they weren't all Christian, is a Christian Atrocity.
Blacks killing Blacks, but they weren't all Black, is a Black Atrocity.
Males killing Males, but they weren't all Males, is a Male Atrocity.
Militias killing Rebels, but they weren't all Rebels, is a Militia Atrocity.
Ethnic Hutus killing Ethnic Tutsi, but they weren't all Tutsi, is a Ethnic Atrocity.
Hmmm, which one fits?

I'll give you a hint, Christians, Blacks, Males, Militias did NOT go through the streets looking for Christians, Blacks, Males, Rebels or others, in reality, Hutus went thru the streets looking for Tutsi, and in some cases peace promoting Hutus.

All the leaders of the Communist Movements, responsible for nearly 100 million deaths over the last century, all Atheist. Hmmm, who has more atrocities under their belt?

Nazi Germany: Where the leaders pursued a cult like perversion of Christianity, but it was NOT the motivation behind their conflict, where Christians came to the defense of Jews? This is your example?

Old Argument, but I'll remove Hitlers continued use of the New Testament and Jesus for his justification of the Holocaust. Why did Hitler feel it was important to link Christian Values and Jesus with the persecution of Jews and other Untermenschen? What was the primary faith of those who committed the acts? That without touching the Catholic Church's collusion with Hitler, the Christian Muslim concentration camps in Poland, nor the Concentration Camp loot the Church had to return (how'd it get there?)

The misinformation and lies being attributed to Muslims today, are the same as they were towards Catholics (your the one that posted the article, should have maybe read it first), Irish and the Japanese. These were all examples of Anti-American values, that in retrospect are shamefull.

Interesting (euphanism for sad) how little has changed. Catholics have been besmirched, by other Christian flavors, for more than a 100 years, because of the paranoia about Rome.

Been reading Cornwell have you? You realized most of his book has been debunked and he has retracted what he has said, at least partially. The consulate of Israel stated Pius XII was instrumental in saving 700,000 Jews. There are certainly things to criticize Pius XII about in dealing with the Nazi's but Collusion with Nazi's is over the top, especially the numerous heroic acts of the Catholic Clergy during the war, especially helping Jews, but you'll ignore all that and find some black helicopter conspiracy theory, or isolated incident, and portray it as a collusion. But, within the same thread your talking about people spreading misinformation and paranoia about Catholics?

Hitler and the Nazis were almost completely rejected by the Western dominantly Christian cultures, but Hitler and Nazis were well received and even admired by the Islamic Mid-East cultures, how do you reconcile that?

Saddam Hussein, an admirer of Hitler, like Hitler was considered a poor practitioner of his faith, and manipulated his faith for Nationalistic and Personal Ambitions. Both Gulf Wars, Hussein declared a Jihad, by your own logic you must agree these were Muslim Wars.

They weren't, they were wars over Hussein aggression, but its the height of intellectual laziness to relegate Hitler and Nazis as Christian Atrocities.

 

[Mongo53]

you might want to read up on the old arguments before entering into the conversation. While some Islamic countries today, are "backwards" they havent always been so. The precurssor to this was Radical Islam.

What is this, the "Its all Bush's Fault" version on this board, always blaming it on the conservatives on the board, they said this, they said that, how does an old conversation have any bearing on the validity of my point.

There is some level of agreement here, Teddy Roosevelt warned about the rise of Whabism, BUT this is NOT a case of a few radicals toppling societies. The whole spectrum of the people is askew, far too many endorse the radicals, far too many sympathize with the radicals, far too many tolerate the radicals, and far, far to few reject the radicals and work to reform the problems in their societies.

The medieval elements of Islamic Societies has always been there, true, while Europe was in roiled in the dark-ages, the mid-east was in its golden age. But their cultures stalled at that point, meanwhile the West went through a Renaissance, Age of Enlightenment and the Major Religions Reformation. Islam and the mid-east never experienced this. Blood Libels, Honor Killings, repression of women, revenge, an inability for introspection, emotional decision making, etc, all way more common than it should have be, and it should have gone out of existence 500 years ago. Sure some areas have experience periods of contentment, they weren't toppled by a few radicals, they were turned upside down by the actions of many and how they react and/or fail to act, they let the radicals run the show.

 

[Nucklesack]

I'm NOT responsible for the conduct of other posters, it doesn't change the fact you make a false argument of moral equivalence between two very different issue that are NOT the same.

You are not responsible for the conduct of other posters, but you are for yourself. If you decide to enter into nto a discussion, an old one, between two posters. If your going to interject yourself into the conversation, at least take the time to reread the arguments.

It does NOT say it is Non-Denominational, it just generically states its a prayer space, in an Islamic Community Center? Half the Mosques in the U.S. are Community Centers and Mosque. Muslims and Islamic publications refer to it as a Mosque, articles and opinion pieces supportive of it refer to it as a Mosque.

Hmm maybe you should read what the Cordoba Institute planned, instead of what Glen Beck tells you? (just a thought)

Cordoba House will be built on the two fundamental commandments common to Judaism, Christianity and Islam: to love the Lord our creator with all of our hearts, minds, souls and strength; and to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. We want to foster a culture of worship authentic to each religious tradition, and also a culture of forging personal bonds across religious traditions.

We know the argument, "He's a muslim, they lie". You could rely on:

• Iman Raufs history of speaking out against Radical Islam and Terrorism, for a clue, but thats to easy.
• His work in New York city to promote interfaith communication and tolerance of all faiths, but thats to easy.
• Read about all of the other organizations, religious and secular, that support the Iman (precisly because of his past works), but that would be to easy.
• Victims, both those of 9/11 and Terrorism in general, who not only support Rauf but also the community center, but that would be to easy as well

Imam Raul is a prominent member of the Perdana Global Peace Organisation, founded by a viscous anti-Semite, and responsible for the violent blockage running on Israel. The founder made outright slurs in 2010, what has Raul done to contradict this?

Was the Founder speaking for Rauf or was he speaking for himself? Look theres no doubt there are Radicals in any organization.

Yea, this is someone that clearly rejects Terrorism with Moral Clarity.

When you lifted your anti-Rauf screed, almost verbatim from Sean Hannity's message board, you would have done yourself a favor by reading further along when his comments towards Hammas were discussed.

Not really sure what the point of posting the interview was, the interviewer asks Rauf if Hamas was an Terrorist organization, and Rauf goes on a tangent about the UN definition of Terrorism.

Since you decided to lift from Hannity's board, i'll do the same

That is most certainly a politicians response. Hamas is one of the groups he is trying to reach out to. Hamas is not Al Qaeda, it is more similar to the IRA / Sinn Feinn. A different approach is needed, and people like him are one of the vehicles for that approach.
What is important is he specifically speaks out against violence of any kind, that is what is needed and that is why the wahhabists hate him.

Hmmm, didn't have any problem finding Moral Clarity when it came to blaming the U.S.A.

And you have no problem attributing a stance to Rauf that he never took. Sure took you long enough to post it.

He doesnt blame the USA, read your own post he even states the United States didnt deserve it, he states the US (and western culture) has their part in fostering the cause of Terrorism. This is, by the way, the exact same thing said by many, Ron Paul, Glen Beck, etc.

The guy wax's poetically about Shari Law in the U.S., keeps it General and Vague, but it certainly gives the impression he wants at least something at least similar to the European Concessions, with the a subset of Judges that would rule on Sharia compliance.

Pull that out of your hat?

Please, if any of this is out of context, please set the context for us.

Besides your Sharia comment, without any source to back it up, you already attempted to set the context. Have to wonder why you would blatantly misconstrue someones comments especially when you post their comments for all to see.

European Pacifism, how does that qualify as a Christian Motivation, when did the Muslims come to their brothers defense? Oh, thats right, never.

So because the Muslims didnt come to the defense of the Muslims in Bosnia, the Christians that perpetrated the attrocities get a pass?

Based on your post about Rauf, you make the argument that you believe the Muslims deserved to get beheaded, have children raped in front of parents, sumarily executed and everything else commited by the peaceful Christians in Bosia.

You contradict yourself, its a Christian atrocity, because it was Christians involved, but then state it wasn't all Christians? So, now its NOT a Christian atrocity?

Try re-reading the post again

Christians werent just killing Christians were they? The Christian pastors, nun, and Preachers were killing 300,000 Tutsi's. But hey the Tutsi's werent coming to the aid of Tutsi's, so its ok right?

I'll give you a hint, Christians, Blacks, Males, Militias did NOT go through the streets looking for Christians, Blacks, Males, Rebels or others, in reality, Hutus went thru the streets looking for Tutsi, and in some cases peace promoting Hutus.

No your right, Christian Black Males, and Christian Pastors, and Christian Nuns' and Christian Preachers were going through the street looking for and killing Tutsi's

All the leaders of the Communist Movements, responsible for nearly 100 million deaths over the last century, all Atheist. Hmmm, who has more atrocities under their belt?

Ahh good ol Godwins law in action. Since you decided to pull that shoe, were the 100 illion deaths killed for the Atheism?

Heres a test, lets see how honest you really are.

• How many people were killed by Atheists for Atheist ideology?
• How many people were killed by Christians for Christian ideology?
• How many people were killed by Muslims for Muslim ideology?

Which one has more attrocities under their belt again?

Been reading Cornwell have you? You realized most of his book has been debunked and he has retracted what he has said, at least partially. The consulate of Israel stated Pius XII was instrumental in saving 700,000 Jews. There are certainly things to criticize Pius XII about in dealing with the Nazi's but Collusion with Nazi's is over the top, especially the numerous heroic acts of the Catholic Clergy during the war, especially helping Jews, but you'll ignore all that and find some black helicopter conspiracy theory, or isolated incident, and portray it as a collusion. But, within the same thread your talking about people spreading misinformation and paranoia about Catholics?

Do yourself a favor and use the search function

When exactly did Pius speak out against Nazi Germany?

Hitler and the Nazis were almost completely rejected by the Western dominantly Christian cultures, but Hitler and Nazis were well received and even admired by the Islamic Mid-East cultures, how do you reconcile that?

Rejected by Western Dominantly Christian Cultures, you might want to research the Nazi party in the US and Britain before posting that idiocy again.

Who exactly did the Catholic Church enter into a Concordant with in the 30s?

So Nazi Germany was primarily Muslim or Primarily Christian?

How do you reconcile that?

 

[Starman3000m]

Yep, exactly my point.

Todays Catholic is a Muslim, the very same criticisms, paranoia, and lies were claimed about Catholics, that today are attributed to Muslims.

Really??? Human rights violations, intolerance toward other faiths and forced conversions were all unfounded criticism, paranoia and lies? OK - if you say so.

 

[Nucklesack]

Really??? Human rights violations, intolerance toward other faiths and forced conversions were all unfounded criticism, paranoia and lies? OK - if you say so.

Stay in context of the discussion, maybe you'll do better than Mongo. There are definitive parrallels to how Catholics were treated in the past, and how Muslims are treated today.

Lets see:

• Catholics - Victims of Intolerance from other faiths based on unfounded criticisms paranoia and lies
• Muslims - Victims of Intolerance from other faiths based on unfounded criticisms, paranoia and lies

Muslims in the US, remember context of the conversation, are no more prone to human rights violations than any other group (including Christians).

 

[Nucklesack]

Yea, this is someone that clearly rejects Terrorism with Moral Clarity.

Your right he, Rauf, was very cler in his Rejection with Hamas and Terrorism

Link

"Hamas is both a political movement and a terrorist organization. Hamas commits atrocious acts of terror. Imam Feisal has forcefully and consistently condemned all forms of terrorism, including those committed by Hamas, as un-Islamic. In his book, he even went so far as to include a copy of the Fatwa issued after 9/11 by the most respected clerics of Egypt defining the 9/11 attack as an un-Islamic act of terror and giving permission to Muslims in the U.S. armed forces to fight against those who committed this act of terror. Imam Feisal included this in his book to prove that terrorism must be fought even if Muslims have to fight fellow Muslims to stop it."

Not really sure why you couldnt find this, if you were really interested in Raufs views.

 

[Starman3000m]

Stay in context of the discussion, maybe you'll do better than Mongo. There are definitive parrallels to how Catholics were treated in the past, and how Muslims are treated today.

Lets see:

• Catholics - Victims of Intolerance from other faiths based on unfounded criticisms paranoia and lies
• Muslims - Victims of Intolerance from other faiths based on unfounded criticisms, paranoia and lies

Muslims in the US, remember context of the conversation, are no more prone to human rights violations than any other group (including Christians).

OK - perhaps you could be a bit more specific:

A.) Please provide examples of the unfounded criticism, paranoia and lies about Catholics that you had in mind when you posted your comment;

then,

B.) Please provide present-day examples of the unfounded criticism, paranoia and lies about Muslims that you are making this comparison to.

 

[Nucklesack]

OK - perhaps you could be a bit more specific:

A.) Please provide examples of the unfounded criticism, paranoia and lies about Catholics that you had in mind when you posted your comment;

Sure no problem read about Lyman Beecher and Horace Bushnell anti catholic rhetoric in the 1830's and 1840's. When John F Kennedy was running, a vocal oposition from Baptists and Protestant led cries about a Roman/Vatican run United States. Besides Jews and Blacks, want to guess what other Belief was specifically called out in the various charters of the KKK?

B.) Please provide present-day examples of the unfounded criticism, paranoia and lies about Muslims that you are making this comparison to.

Sure most of the arguments against Rauf and the Community Center