You damn fools...

[Larry Gude]

Fallen Army Ranger left lasting mark on TJ High - The Frederick News-Post Online

Frederick Army Ranger killed in Afghanistan - The Frederick News-Post Online

Vogeler was serving his eighth deployment to Afghanistan and had served four deployments to Iraq.

You read that article, damn you. You don't trust our god damn socialist potus with our pocket book, rightly so, but you trust him with the most important thing we have; our flesh and blood. You can always make more money. How many people like this do we have in a generation?

This kid, this young man, we're playing Russian roulette with him and he lost. We lost. We've lost 1,000's of our best and brightest because that type of person always runs towards the sound of gunfire, not away. 1,000's dead and gone. tens of thousands maimed and cripple. And countless 1,000's more who are NEVER home. Are not raising the kids they have. Not making new babies that they'd raise to be good people. Not there for their wives, their families, their communities, all to answer the call of duty.

This bull#### has gone on far too long. Vogeler's life is worth how many Afghani's or Iraqi's? All of them as far as I am concerned. More than all of them. We are NOT going to 'win' because we have not been playing to win. Not Bush. For damn sure not Obama. So, we grind them up, the best. The brightest. Year after year, deployment after deployment. For what? FOR WHAT???

I understand many of you have jobs tied to war and I respect that. However, we will always need weapons and you good folks. Maybe not in as large of numbers. Maybe more the way things are going. But, I ask you, I beg you, is Afghanistan, Iraqi, are they really worth this price, this irreplaceable cost to our nation??? Men like this are far better than me, than some of you, and we need them. It is one thing to serve, to get the experience. In this all volunteer age, it is another to be a supply to be used up.

I will not listen to your bull#### answers that we need to 'win'. That is NOT what we are trying to do. It just isn't and you know it. We can always go kill, bomb, destroy. We're just too afraid, or unwilling, to do it. That is no excuse to use up the people who are willing, who overcome their fears. Men like Vogeler will not stop until the job is done. But, we've sent them off on a job that does not end, can not end, given the mission we've sent them on. So, they go back. Again and again and again.

Until they don't come back.

Read this mans resume. Look at what we're asking them to do. Look at who we're trusting to properly lead them. Look at our real loss. You really think this is worth it, our 1/2 ass UN mission?

Obama disturbs me, you, with his economic leadership. It outrages me the idea of him, the malignant narcissist, sending our absolute best off to war with all the handicaps and limitations we ask them to deal with. It was bad enough when Bush did it. It could at least be argued he MIGHT wanted to have won. Obama? Money is one thing. Life and death is another.

 

[chernmax]

............. Larry by far your best rant!!!

 

[Pushrod]

I read a post on another forum recently by a young man asking why we had a plan to invade Japan. We had beaten them back to their main island, why didn't we just enact an embargo on them since they had pretty much lost the war, instead of risking so many more lives or dropping the bombs and killing so many more innocent people.

The answers were polite and knowledgable. The main point was that we were in that war to win, we wanted to crush Japan completely so they never got it in their head to ever do what they have done again. Total and utter victory with unconditional surrender on their part. At the time the civilians on Japan were taking up whatever arms they could find and martialing against the inevitable invasion, to defend their emporer god. There were no innocents.
At that time in this country we knew how to wage war, total massive force, politics be damned, we were fighting to win...total destruction of our enemies!

We seem to have lost that concept since WWII. Now we throw our sons and daughters to the wolves with some "higher" goal than total annihilation, some percieved goal of pacification and good will twards the host country of our enemies while we try not to offend too many or their people.

Can you imagine that when we went to war against Germany, if our M.O. was to only fight the Nazi party troops instead of the entire German army and people, so as not to offend the German people and their allies? We would have been fighting that war forever as we killed and captured nazis, more are produced by the sympathizers in their populations mix, a never ending supply.
A war of attition as our numbers of dead and wounded are ever rising. Thank God we didn't do that, we went in and destroyed their country and their will to fight or support any such effort. There was no worry about collateral damage as we carpet bombed their cities. We wanted to break their will to wage war against us or support that awful regime.

Now a days we want to be sensitive to our enemies supporters and the enemy himself, their lives seem to be worth more in the eyes of our leaders then those of our own countrymen doing the fighting. We should have gone into Afganistan and Iraq like we did in WWII and rain just total utter destruction on them, bring their entire population and government to their knees so that they never ever want to tangle with us again or support anyone who does. We have effed this up massively. Thank you Bush, Congress and Obama, the blood of our children is on your shoulders.

 

[EmptyTimCup]

100 MT Nukes (the Russians Had them) on Mecca, Medina, Tehran, Tribal Areas of Pakistan ...


Chemical Weapons on Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Military Bases of those Countries ... reduce the Moslem Population to 1/10 what it is now ... freeze assets in American Banks of all the above .... break them .... leave them with nothing .... if they start some #### here deport the whole damn lot of them ...

 

[TurboK9]

Part of the problem is that our well intentioned but ignorant politicians and populace believe wholeheartedly that our enemies view the world through the same light we do.

They don't.

We show kindness, they see weakness. We show tolerance, they spread hatred. We go after 'hearts and minds', they jack up the body count.

These enemies of ours, almost every one since Korea, is more than willing to annihilate their own civilian populations let alone our armed forces. They have the stomache for protracted, violent conflict. America does not. Not any more. So we start conflicts that we cannot, dare not, finish. We are weak, despite our strength.

That is NOT a good thing, because our enemies see it as a weakness, and they see us as vulnerable, and they are willing to wait as long as it takes for the door to their idea of victory to open.

Well written Larry and I share your pain.

 

[ImnoMensa]

Part of the problem is that our well intentioned but ignorant politicians and populace believe wholeheartedly that our enemies view the world through the same light we do.

They don't.

We show kindness, they see weakness. We show tolerance, they spread hatred. We go after 'hearts and minds', they jack up the body count.

These enemies of ours, almost every one since Korea, is more than willing to annihilate their own civilian populations let alone our armed forces. They have the stomache for protracted, violent conflict. America does not. Not any more. So we start conflicts that we cannot, dare not, finish. We are weak, despite our strength.

That is NOT a good thing, because our enemies see it as a weakness, and they see us as vulnerable, and they are willing to wait as long as it takes for the door to their idea of victory to open.

Well written Larry and I share your pain.

I agree with Larry . Either fight an all out war to win or come home.

 

[stew77]

I have said this before, and I will say this again: YOU CANNOT FIGHT A WAR WITH RULES! The other side doesn't recognize thm, so why should we? Damn the politicians, and the bleeding heart liberals...Fight to win! End of discussion!

 

[EmptyTimCup]

I agree with Larry . Either fight an all out war to win or come home.

and as Larry has said this is a War for the Planet .... Western Way of Life against Sha'ria law and Muslim Political Structure ...

 

[SamSpade]

It may also be that it's been a long time since we faced a war where we had any sense of our own imminent danger. When tanks roar across Poland and France, U-Boats sink merchant ships and the Japanese pound the ever living crap out of Pearl harbor, you get the idea that you might die if you don't get up and fight.

Before we even entered that war, millions had died. *Millions*. And we'd fought a similarly brutal war previously.

What we've had since possibly Korea is a very sanitized view of war, where we send men off into the meat grinder, but we go on with our lives mostly oblivious to the consequences.

On the other hand, I am sure the people LIVING in these war zones do take the war seriously, which is why winning these wars is so difficult for the major powers that do not. THEY are fighting for their lives, and the old saw goes that a man defending his home is worth ten that fight for pay or plunder.

We don't go all in, because no one really believes we need to.

 

[libertytyranny]

The tact we are taking defies logic, reason, and science.


Punishment is rendered ineffective when it goes from small and increases. The best tact has been proven time and time again with research study upon research study...the first punishment should be severe enough to prevent the behavior from happening again. When you increase punishments, all you do is make the organism used to it. It's a ####ty tactic and whoever is designing this crap needs to go. One warning then catastrophe. That's how it should go.

 

[PsyOps]

Considering Obama will continue the Bush status quo on fighting this war, you have to consider our citizens continue to join knowing full well what they are going to face. Considering the misguided efforts by our CINC and his advisors to "fight" this war, what compels our citizens to continue to join and leap into this disaster? Are they just a bunch of ignorant dolts that know no better?

Get people to stop joining :shrug:

 

[philibusters]

I don't think its fair to place the entire burden on Obama. Its one thing to point to specific things Obama has done and say why you disagree with them, but its another to just generally say it on him. We went into Afghanistan in 2001 and are still in there. Its not an easy war to win. Obama took over in January of 2009. We were not close to winning the war there are still are not.

I think the issues are

1. Whether the war there is worth winning?
2. What does it mean to win the war there?
3. If the war is worth winning what is the best way to win it?
4. If the war is not worth winning what is the best way to withdraw our troops?

 

[Larry Gude]

and as Larry has said this is a War for the Planet .... Western Way of Life against Sha'ria law and Muslim Political Structure ...

And there are numerous ways to win it. And bleeding ourselves dry, losing our best and brightest, is a good way to lose it.

 

[Larry Gude]

I don't think its fair to place the entire burden on Obama.

If you read my OP, hell, if you've ever read one of my posts, you know I don't put it all on him. I don't see anyone in here putting it on the Great Leader any more than he deserves as current CiC.

It's agonizing enough when someone comes home in a box when you at least know Bush meant well, wars of liberation, to try and make things better, no matter how poorly he lead. At least I know he cared.

It is another to look at one more box, one more funeral, one more obit and life story with a brand new last chapter under a commander who has no interest in winning anything more than his own political battles.

Obama is, by no means, the first cynical president who saw his soldiers as political props. He just happens to be the current one.

 

[itsbob]

I don't think its fair to place the entire burden on Obama. Its one thing to point to specific things Obama has done and say why you disagree with them, but its another to just generally say it on him. We went into Afghanistan in 2001 and are still in there. Its not an easy war to win. Obama took over in January of 2009. We were not close to winning the war there are still are not.

I think the issues are

1. Whether the war there is worth winning?
2. What does it mean to win the war there?
3. If the war is worth winning what is the best way to win it?
4. If the war is not worth winning what is the best way to withdraw our troops?

Obmama promised to end the war and bring them home..

So let's not put all the blame on Obama.. let's just blame him for his unkept promises.

 

[ImnoMensa]

Obmama promised to end the war and bring them home..

So let's not put all the blame on Obama.. let's just blame him for his unkept promises.

I don't think the boy who grew up in Hawaii, and the man who studied in America, and was elected because he was a Community organiser, knows too much about war, economics, or anything else, but I dont blame him for the war in Afghanistan, just the way he is running it.

 

[TurboK9]

You can't blame a President for how he runs a war when the entire flippn' country lacks the intestines to accept the sacrifices and do what must be done to win.

WWII was mentioned, and how we bombed the shiat out of our enemies and to hell with civilian casualties and .

There is another side to that coin. To achieve the total decimation of our enemies empires also cost far far more American lives in one operation than we have seen from Iraq and AF combined since '03.

We, as a nation, lack the stomache. If it were not for a courageous few who choose to serve and sacrifice, you all might just be so many body parts littering the sidewalks outside Starbucks and Panera right now.

We shouldn't go to war, because the American people as a general rule aren't willing to do what it takes to win. Most of us wouldn't sacrifice 8 hours on a Saturday to support a rally for a cause we supposedly believed in, let alone ask our service people to go out and annihilate the enemy aggressively and en-masse by full scale war and the casualties that come with it as we did in WWII, or God forbid, put ourselves in harms way.

Blame Bush for going over, sure. But for the way things are going? It's what our weak willed namby-pamby population has been asking for since Operation Linebacker and before.

 

[Larry Gude]

You can't blame a President for how he runs a war when the entire flippn' country lacks the intestines to accept the sacrifices and do what must be done to win.

Hell I can't.

Leadership is HARD. That is, good leadership is very, very difficult. Crap is easy.

It was easy for Bush to say "We're all gonna die if we don't do this!!!" It woulda been hard for him to say, "We're doing a draft because we need 500,000 infantry to make this work and we're all gonna die or live under Sharia law if we don't"

Or, it would have been hard for him to drop a nuke on Mecca and ask Muslims if they are now ready to police their own or does Medina need to go as well.

Fact is, Bush thought he could do it on the cheap because he did not actually believe it was an existential threat.

Or, he was just not a good enough leader. The America we all knew was swept away under Bush. He created the America of Obama. The sooner we accept that, the sooner we can start fighting back from common ground. if wee keep pretending Bush didn't do this, if we insist on pretending Obama is some sort of aberration and all will be well when we get us another GOP potus, then we ignore the core problems and simply change D's and R's back and forth.

The core problem under Bush was that he did NOT govern as a conservative.

 

[acommondisaster]

The bright side is that the killing is only going to go on in Afghanistan for about a year. Then He can shrug His shoulders and say "we tried" and bring the troops home.

Then, we can fight the war here. And we will. And we'll absorb a lot more casualties, because we can. He has told us we can absorb more casualties. Perhaps He even wants the war brought here, nothing would surprise me about Him anymore.

He doesn't have the intestinal fortitude (and as a people we probably don't either) to fight a real war there.

 

[TurboK9]

Hell I can't.

Leadership is HARD. That is, good leadership is very, very difficult. Crap is easy.

It was easy for Bush to say "We're all gonna die if we don't do this!!!" It woulda been hard for him to say, "We're doing a draft because we need 500,000 infantry to make this work and we're all gonna die or live under Sharia law if we don't"

Or, it would have been hard for him to drop a nuke on Mecca and ask Muslims if they are now ready to police their own or does Medina need to go as well.

Fact is, Bush thought he could do it on the cheap because he did not actually believe it was an existential threat.

Or, he was just not a good enough leader. The America we all knew was swept away under Bush. He created the America of Obama. The sooner we accept that, the sooner we can start fighting back from common ground. if wee keep pretending Bush didn't do this, if we insist on pretending Obama is some sort of aberration and all will be well when we get us another GOP potus, then we ignore the core problems and simply change D's and R's back and forth.

The core problem under Bush was that he did NOT govern as a conservative.

Conservative or not it wouldn't have mattered. Heck let's not forget, when we first went into AF and Iraq we were told by a Dem congress to expect MASSIVE casualty figures. They still voted to go in. I think in Iraq they estimated 70,000 US in the initial invasion. Never happened.

Had it gone down that way, we'd have been out in a week.

Our people DEMAND low US casualties, DEMAND no civilan casualties. So that is the way we fight the wars. It's what we do now, because if we don't 1/2 our population screams and mewls and whines and protests.

If the politicians thought for one second that the American people wanted total victory fast and at any cost, Linebacker III would be upon the Middle East.

I refuse to blame a president when the president was just following American doctrine as dictated by the whining of her population since Kent State.

:shrug: